When someone on the EcoModder forums asks about buying a used hybrid, there is usually a flurry of excitement coupled with cautions about the age of the car and the price of a new battery pack. Ecomodders, usually being budget-minded folks, are very wary of the seemingly astronomical price of battery replacement.
In the early part of this decade, some of the biggest worries about hybrids were how could the batteries possibly last, when would they finally give out, and how much would it cost to have them replaced. These days, concerns about batteries have largely faded out of the minds of new car buyers. Honda and Toyota have both had hybrids on the market for about a decade now, and there are no ominous junkyards filled with dead hybrids.
To underline the reliability of modern battery-electric hybrids, Honda says that out of over 100,000 hybrids on the road currently, only 200 have needed out-of-warranty battery replacement. Toyota, on the other hand, has only needed to replace 0.003 percent of its hybrid batteries out of warranty on the second generation Prius. Granted, these cars still aren’t all that old, and the batteries will likely fail eventually, but it seems that they are living up to manufacturers’ promises that they will last the life of a car.
Necessity aside, Honda and Toyota have both announced drastic cuts to the cost of replacement batteries for their hybrids. It will now cost just under $2,000 to have new batteries installed in you Honda Insight, and just under $2,500 for your Accord hybrid. These are about $1,000 reductions in the cost. Toyota, on the other hand, has dropped prices from ~$5,500 to $3,000, but that doesn’t include the installation, so the real cost is likely a bit more.
So, buyers of used hybrids, never fear! It’s unlikely that your batteries will fail prematurely, and even if they do, replacements are getting cheaper.
Source: Newsweek
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200 of 100,000 is 0.002 percent, since you don’t seem to know how to do the math. Your sentence including the statistic sounds weird, as Honda’s replacement rate is lower than Toyota’s.
It’s great that the cost is coming down, as it helps close the cost gap with plain petrol cars. I think more car buyers are concerned with economics than ecology, so this should in turn make more buyers interested in hybrids.
However, I’m not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that “it’s unlikely that your batteries will fail prematurely.” The data you cite describes out-of-warranty replacements, i.e. not premature. The only conclusion the data support is “so far, very few people have had to foot the bill for a new battery” (keeping in mind that most hybrids on the road are still very young and probably still under warranty).
I did a quick Google search and found one source that said Toyota hybrid-related components have an 8 year / 100,000 mile warranty. Another source said 10 year / 150,000 miles. If long warranties for hybrid batteries are common, it should surprise no one that there have been few out-of-warranty replacements needed so far.
You do not mention in the article that these battery packs are expensive to recycle, and terrible for the enviroment if they are not recycled properly. It is great news that they will be less need for recycling than anticipated, but it is a frequently understated factor in assessing the impact of these types of vehicle. The frequently slammed Hummers may be gas hogs, but with a usual life expectancy of 300,000 miles, they need to be recycled far less frequently than most other vehicles, which reduces their total impact. Don’t get me wrong, I am not pro-Hummer, I just think we should be assessing the total impact of a vehicle, from manufacture to scrap recycling, when judging vehicles, and the battery packs in hybrids are a big recycling factor.
The problem with battery replacement costs isn’t normally with the original owner. The next owners, those who buy older, used cars will face those costs and it will significantly reduce the resale value of a hybrid. That is an added cost, and increases waste as it reduces the economically viable lifespan of the car. Now a car that might have been bought 8-10 years up the road and continued driving for 5 more will be junked.
Not saying this is bad news, this is a great step in the right direction, but at $3,000 just in parts for the replacement the problem is still a very large one.
Can “over 100,000 hybrids” really cause “ominous junkyards filled…”? I presume that 100K figure is not in the US alone, but even if it was. That leads to the next question.
Does “only 200 have needed out-of-warranty battery replacement’ and “they will last the life of a car” mean the warranty period is the life of the car?
I love the rag but this is a bit weak.
I have a question, with all of these people buying new hybrids… what are they doing with their old car?
It seems to me that if the old car was functional, without major mecganical defects, it would make more sense to continue driving it rather than buy a new car, that required a great deal of energy (admittedly not all of it gasoline) to manufacture.
I realize the hybrid saves gas, but isn’t the total energy usage to replace a working car much higher than simply modifying your driving (e.g., car pool, plan and group trips, etc.) habits to use less gasoline.
Just curious if anyone has looked into this or has any thought on the matter.
My apologies for poor editing: my previous post should read “without major mechanical defects”
Let’s hear about what happens to these old hybrid batteries once they get removed… Batteries are full of metal and bad chemicals, right?
Whew! That’s excellent. I bought a Honda Civic hybrid on 2005. I wasn’t looking for an expensive replacement anytime soon. However, the expectation of a lower-priced replacement down the line is good news.
So…what WERE the cost of Hybrid batteries 10 years ago and what are they now?
Math Avenger: I can indeed do math, thank you for your snarkiness. Both companies give out there numbers in different ways, and I was representing them as such. Honda has had to replace 200 out of 100k and Toyota .003% of batteries on Second Gen Prii.
dnl2ba: I made the statement based on reading several reports about battery life, knowing several owners of high mileage hybrids, and also knowing that hybrid systems are designed to preserve battery life for long periods of time, which they seem to be doing.
Andrew: Judging by your statement that the Hummer will last “300,000 miles,” I would wager that you’ve been reading the “Hummers are better than Prii” article that’s been looped around the internet, which assumes the Hummer has a lifespan of 3x that of a Prius. I think if you look at vehicle life and reliability comparisons you will see that that’s not true. Similarly, I think if you look around the internet you’ll see that most reputable experts would disagree with that article. It’s ridiculously biased.
Rt: That was a reference to “Who Killed the Electric Car,” where shots of piles of EV1s in a junkyard painted the picture that the car was doomed to failure. Sorry for not making the allusion clearer.
Matt: That’s a good question, and part of the reason I still drive a 91 CRX, 🙂
SLEZE: Read the post?
Thanks all for your comments!
Sorry Math Avenger, do your math again. 2 out of 100,000 would be .002%. But 200 out of 100,000 is .2%, so Toyota’s replacement rate is quite a bit better than Honda’s.
Thank you. You may be excused now.
To all the math geniuses here: 200 out of 100k is 0.2 percent. (notice the “cent” root word there, which refers to “number out of 100”)
0.003 percent of 100000 would be 3.
Man… and I thought regular car batteries were freaking expensive!! It’s good the hear that despite the price, these batteries are still living up to the promises and expectations of manufacturers.
My 2003 Honda Civic hybrid just got its 100,000 mile checkup (at about 98,000 miles). It still runs like new and on the same original electric, big battery in the back. Getting rid of two Jaguars and buying the Civic hybrid in 2003 was a great financial move, especially going into retirement. Back then, even though the Insight was out for several years, it was not accepted yet in the mainstream technology thinking, so there was an element of gambling on the Civic hybrid versus a regular civic.
And I was told by a Honda salesman back then that the batteries would cost $1,000. But the truth today is the Stockton, CA Honda dealer quoted me $3,000, but added they are starting to recycle batteries and the cost is expected to go down. They did say they have replaced some, but did not say how many. At first, I was livid about the $3,000 cost, and thought I’d sell the Civic hybrid. Then I realized we can’t buy a new car for less than that, PLUS I got the Diamond Lane stickers that allow me to go in the commuter lane with only one person. The state of California is not giving those out any more, so that enhances the value of the car, and adds an incentive for sticking with the same serial numbered car!
I was worried that hybrids would create a toxic situation of too many batteries in foreign landfills. There are already piles of “regular” car batteries in asia adding more seems worse.
Funny thing is no one told the dealership that batteries are cheaper. They want $6100 to put a new battery in my 2000 Honda Insight. $2700.00 is the battery cost, but that is just part of the story. Honda says you have to change out two control modules at the same time you replace your battery. They aren’t cheap. $1,700 and $850 respectively.
Well, I have a Civic Hybrid — and my battery just failed after 5 years. Whatever statistics were given here (e.g. only 200 have failed out of 100, 000) are either hogwash or more prove that I’m a special guy. And the batteries are expensive. Don’t believe the 8 year b.s. — it’s starting to look like the battery life if more like 5 years.
I too have a Civic Hybrid (2003) and with 108,000 miles, the IMA light came on. Took it to the dealer and they said the battery needs replacement. The irony is that the car had no performance issues or MPG loss whatsoever. That was in Nov 08. Its now Feb 09 and I am still driving it with the IMA and engine lights on (over 3000 miles since it came on). The dealer did offer to replace the battery at half price. But, my dilemma is that I still don’t think the battery is actually bad. My MPG are the same as they’ve always been (~45) and the battery still charges fully. My gut tells me its not the battery, but maybe a sensor or some other issue related to the battery. So, now I’m stuck deciding whether to replace it, hoping the half price – quoted at $1600 – offer is still good or just keep driving it with the IMA lights on. I’ve called Honda Customer Service to see if they could help but they wouldn’t offer any other assistance with it. It sucks that the savings from getting high mileage are going to be lost replacing the battery!
Is there a diagnostics manual you can pick up to try to check it out yourself? It might be worth trying to bring it into a shop and see if a real person will help you out. If not, try a different dealership, they’re not all stuffy!
well, my own battery pack just started to go — 113,000 miles and 8 years after i bought my civic hybrid. the IMA light went on — simultaneous with the check engine lights — about a month ago. i had it serviced at the dealer, who updated some software (and out went the engine light, supposedly indicating a catalytic converter problem originally), and out went the IMA light. i was told that the battery was underperforming according to specs, and would need to be replaced. the dealer quoted me around $4,500 to fix it. i balked, shocked not only that the battery pack costs about $3,000 more than was presumed by the dealer (and honda, in general, it seems) when i bought the vehicle in 2003, but that the cost of fixing my car was roughly half its bluebook value. i called american honda — and they generated what they called a ‘good will’ offer: the deal is that the dealer will replace the battery for $1,500 (what i was told originally when buying the car). now, a month later, i’m still getting around 44mph (down from about 48) and would like to wait/experiment and find out just how long these batteries last (and NOT shell out $1,500 before i need). sounds like a plan? well, more surprise: american honda tells me that this ‘good will’ offer has a deadline of 30 days from when it was generated. and there is little chance that they will generate another for me. customer service, which i thought was a strong suit for honda, should take some lessons from L.L. Bean. american honda (and ron, my ‘customer service’ guy) act like they’re doing me a favor — and whitney parker, the regional manager for honda here in north carolina, seems over her head in trying to balance customer relations and misleading assumptions about a new technology. i’m getting a bad taste in my mouth from honda — and i’ve been with them for about 20 years now. i’ll be checking out a prius next time, i think…
My 2003 Civic Hybrid has 106k on it and the IMA light just came on. Took it to my local mechanic and he gave me the code for the battery back being replaced.
Something else he said is far more worrisome. That when the battery back gets to a certain level, the transmission will stop working. Meaning that the car won’t even drive??? so much for the sales guy saying “You’ll just have an underpowered gas engine when the battery goes”.
Anybody else heard this?
That sounds a little fishy. From what I know the pack just slowly dies and you don:t get the benefit anymore. I have never heard otherwise, though if you ask on the EcoModder forums I am sure you will get a better response from an owner since several have rebuilt Honda hybrids and will know about the pack issues.
Like Bob, Richard and PixelPusher220 above, I too have a 2003 Civic Hybrid with over 100k on it (138k to be more precise). I’ve been driving with the IMA light on for going on a year now with only a modest decrease in mileage similar to what Mr. Tapper described. About 2 months ago I took my car in for an oil change at my local dealer quoted $3,600 for a new battery (including installation). I told them I would think about it. After reading these posts, I say, “No thanks!” The car still runs fine. Only a couple of times, if it was cold outside and the car had been parked for a long time (2-3 days), I noticed the battery appeared completely drained and was missing it’s usual zip. I was clearly running with only the 1.3 liter gas motor (no electric motor). After about an hour driving home on the highway, however, the battery was fully charged. This has not happened since the winter. The other place this is noticeable was driving over the Appalachians a few times. Those long uphill stretches would predictably drain the battery. Thankfully, I’ve got a manual transmission, so I could compensate for the reduced performance in both instances. 🙂
Here’s what I want to know: Has anyone out there replaced their battery (IMA)? Anyone replaced it without using the dealership’s mechanics (DIY)? Once it was replaced, did the MPG return to normal?
I’ll probably just drive it until the wheels fall off.
P.S. Benjamin, I miss my ’89 CRX which I sold for $800 with 250k on the odometer back in 2000.
You can DIY it, but you can also check out Ron Hanson at hybrid-battery-repair.com, who will fix up your pack for cheaper than a factory replacement
Thanks Benjamin, great tip! My next trip to NYC may be dual purpose.
I read some/most of the comments about hybrid battery replacements on this website, and I
thought I would input my own experience/information. I purchased a new Honda Civic Hybrid in September of ’05 from the Honda dealer in Abilene, Texas. I bought the car for use in the work I do. I never had a problem with the power pack until this very week, not until 11 August, ’09. Then, bingo!, my IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) light came on. I took the car in to the Honda dealer today (Honda of Abilene). The power pack had deteriorated. No more assistance from the electric motor. Fuel milage dropped by 10 mpg. Car has slightly less than 323,000 miles on it. Don’t know if I will replace the power pack or not(???)
If you drive that much, it is probably worth having the pack repaired for the fuel savings. Check out: http://hybrid-battery-repair.com/
Mr. Jones,
I checked out that website you suggested. I’d like to shake your hand. I do appreciate the input. I’ll call those folks and have a talk with them come Monday. As Irish luck would have it, I can get up to NY next week, and get paid for my troubles. Thanks again.
I too have a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid. My IMA light and engine light came on at 125K miles. I took it to the dealer and they wanted $4,000 to replace the battery and 2,000 to replace the catalytic converter. I said no way and if Honda expects to continue to sell this vehicle they need to get the replacement cost down to $1,000 for the battery.
However the fact that I live in Massachusetts present another problem. The IMA light turns on the engine light. With the engine light on you can’t pass inspection so you can’t legally drive the car. A real catch 22. I did have the engine light turned out (device to reset codes) and is remained out for the requisite time (drive time) required to go to another shop and get the car inspected.
They said the car passed with flying colors, low emmisions, etc.
So I am hopeful this “turn off the light” strategy will work again in 2010.
Any suggestion would be appreciated.
Bobg,
In the IMA system, the battery shouldn’t turn on an engine code. So if there is a persistent engine code it is likely due to a problem other than the battery that needs fixing. You can talk to Ron Hanson at hybrid-battery-repair.com as he also does civic hybrid batteries. Good luck!
Gene, 2003 (6 years from 2009) same battery working. $3000
Richard, battery lasted 5 years.
David – quoted $6100
Bob, 5 years? (2003- Nov 2008) – Quoted $1600
Richard #2 or same one?, 113,000 miles, 8 years, $1,500
PixelPusher220, 2003-2009, 6 years? 106k
Fred – 2003-2008, 5 years? $3,600
Bobg – 2003-2009, 125K, $6000 total
6,5,5,8,6,5,6 years
Just a small sample, but the average Civic Hybrid until IMA light came on is…
Average: 5.85 years, 114666 miles
3000,6100,1600,1500,3600,6000
Avg Price to replace battery: $3633
“IMA battery is really just 120 “D” cell flashlight batteries. The cells are welded together to provide large contact areas so that they can handle the enormous charge and discharge current (up to 100 Amps).” ~hybrid-battery-repair.com
wow. I thought the battery would be more powerful than that.
I’ll add my 8/2003 75k mile Civic Hybrid to the sample. My IMA and engine light came on in 12/2009. I took it to the DC area dealer I bought the car from. They found codes P1447 and P1449, reset things, upgraded software and was told by the service rep that they would replace the battery under warranty if the light came back on anytime soon. I haven’t noticed any performance problem, but the dashboard reports 42-43mpg instead of my usual 48-52 (which is always a bit above the value I compute each time I refill).
Just after my 120,000 mile checkup on my 2003 Honda Civic hybrid, the IMA hybrid light came on. When I returned to Stockton Honda and they analyzed it, they called and said the bad news is I needed a new hybrid battery. But the good news is it would be free because the warrantee has now been extended to 150,000 miles for the Ultra Low Emissions vehicles (only). So I wish to thank Honda and praise them for this customer friendly new policy. I felt like I had just been given a new car because everything else still drives like new. Many people have questioned me over the six years I have owned the car now if I bought it “just because it was the thing to do?” Way back when those people said, “I pencilled it out and the economics don’t jive with buying a regular gasoline car” did not forecast the drastic increase in gas costs from 2003. It has also been the best car I’ve ever owned and I’ve had many ranging from Chevrolets to Jaguars. We’ve driven it to Montana several times and all over the Western United States. I’m a converted Honda fan for sure, especially now that I’m in retirement and must watch our pennies more. I only wish American car manufacturers would have done what Honda did many years ago. It is sad, indeed, that the American manufacturers haven’t yet got “it”, but now show some promise of catching up. However, I’m afraid that cars like the Chevrolet Volt will be far too expensive—with projections of prices like $40,000—meaning I could buy two one year old Honda Civic Hybrids. America needs the equivalent of a 1958 VW bug “every man’s” safe, reliable, two-door, five passenger car that will get 100 miles per gallon or run totally on electricity for at least 400 miles without a charge and sell for under $20,000. If Detroit can produce this, the country would start humming again without the need for constant government bailouts.
Thanks for the comment, Gene! Glad to know you had a good experience with your replacement from Honda.
I should have added the new, courtesy, extended warrantee for the ULTRA LOW EMISSIONS (only!) Honda Civic hybrids is 150,000 miles or 10 years—whichever comes first.
How do you know if a HCH you are going to buy is an Ultra Low Emissions one? I am looking at buying a 2003 model with 139,000 miles on it. The thought I can get the battery replaced if it fails in the next 11,000 miles is appealing but since I am unable to get to NY if it needs repairing and Honda will want thousands should it give out, I am definitely having second thoughts on buying a hybrid, especially since I drive 600+ miles a week with my commute. A diesel is suddenly starting to look a lot more attractive…
My 2003 Honda still has the sticker on the side window saying Ultra Low Emissions. I would imagine any dealer could also tell you from the serial number of the car that reveals such information, including the dashboard radio code .
Today, as much as I have liked the hybrid, I would probably buy a regular Honda Civic. My neighbor bought a new one in 2009 and claims he gets up to 42 miles per gallon. Thus you would pay less to buy the car and not have the battery cost worry if you intend to keep the car any length of time.
Well I finally bought a 2002 Toyota Prius with 67000 miles on it. in almost new condition. I have a few weeks left on the 8y warranty but hopefully it will last me a long while 🙂
I was told by Boch Honda (Norwood, MA, that my 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid was not covered by the 150,000 10 year warrantee extension. That it was for Insights only. Any comments?
Bob, I found out the same thing when I had a used car dealer call Howdy Honda, since the Civic they had already had the IMA light on.
Looks like Gene’s dealer made a mistake.
Seems like it. With the added cost of thousands for a battery, I left the $7,000 Civic behind me.
My dealer did replace my 2003 HCH IMA battery under warranty last weekend. My receipt suggests that the warranty expires in August, 7 years, to the day, after I bought it. It also indicated that I would have paid $2700 had it not been under warranty.
Hi All,
This weekend my IMA light went on in my 2005 Civic at a little over 90K – Monday I was told I needed a new battery and it was going to cost me $2378- Back in ’05 when I bought it I asked the sales guys if the battery would ever need replacing and he said that he’d never known of a case in which a battery had to be replaced, so Monday I tell the service guy that and he said no offense to the sales guy but he doesn’t work in the service dept and that all hybrids, when approching the 100K mark, will need a battery replacement- He also said that my car would completely stop working once the battery goes….but from reading previous posts that doesn’t sound correct? Also Gene stated that the waranty had been extended to 150K or 10 years, is that a Honda policy or state policy – I live in TX –
@Someone’s Gotta Correct the Troll,
” Sorry Math Avenger, do your math again. 2 out of 100,000 would be .002%. But 200 out of 100,000 is .2%, so Toyota’s replacement rate is quite a bit better than Honda’s.”
The battery problem rate for Toyota only applicable to 2nd generation Prius, which was introduced in 2003. This article is written in June 2008. That means most Prius are still covered by its manufacturer warranty. Therefore, a relatively low out of warranty problem rate is expected.
On the other hand, Honda Insight has been available since 1999, therefore, a higher proportion is expected to be out of warranty.
To say Toyota’s battery replacement rate is better than Honda’s is like comparing an orange with an apple.
@Leticia:
Check out posts 40/41 in this thread.
Leticia,
I also live in Texas. I have TWO 2005 Honda Civic Hybrids. I bought the second one because I was so pleased with the first one. I used the first HCH in my business, and the second one has now replaced my first one. I put 326,000 miles on my first car (which I bought new). The IMA light came on on that first car when I had about 300,000 miles on the car. At the time, I could afford to do nothing about the problem. My car started getting about 3-4 mpg less in mileage. I kept driving it; I had no choice. And . . . whatever the problem was, I suppose it fixed itself(???) One day the IMA light went off, the fuel milage returned to normal, and . . . no problem since. I bought the second car (which is identical to the first) from a man and wife in Paris (Texas). It had 78,000 on it when I bought it, and now has 119,000. I paid $10,475 for the second one, and do not regret it. No problem with the second car as yet. Honest mileage on both care, on the highway: 44-47 mpg ordinarily and depending. Hope this helps.
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