Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-16-2016, 02:03 PM   #11 (permalink)
Your current user title
 
Fingie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Finland
Posts: 394

"The War Wagon" Aka Yevina - '03 Vaz 111 1.5 8V MPI Station Wagon
90 day: 34.7 mpg (US)
Thanks: 55
Thanked 30 Times in 25 Posts
a lot of three-bangers here in Europe are now with start-stop. Wouldn't be surprised if it's mandatory by 2025...

Cool suit, Balto

__________________
If you don't make any mistakes in your life,
life itself will be a f*ckup.



A V T O V A Z
  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 12-16-2016, 02:11 PM   #12 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Elmira, NY
Posts: 1,252
Thanks: 158
Thanked 200 Times in 174 Posts
I can see gas engines with start/ stop but not so much with a diesel.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2016, 07:15 PM   #13 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 4,429
Thanks: 0
Thanked 374 Times in 335 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant-53 View Post
I can see gas engines with start/ stop but not so much with a diesel.
Apart from a few Volvo hybrid buses that were tested in my hometown, I still haven't seen any other Diesel fitted with start-stop. My main concern would be about the effects to the particulate filter due to an increased amount of colder starts due to the engine not producing enough heat to promote the regen cycle in-between some shorter runs.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2016, 04:50 PM   #14 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: ireland
Posts: 28
Thanks: 0
Thanked 19 Times in 8 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
And sample size.

For comparison, on the Mirage forum, we've got 142 owners reporting 3569 fills over 1 million+ miles / 1.6m km.

When broken down by drivetrain type:

1.2L 5MT avg (69 cars) = 44.8 MPG (US) = 5.3 L/100 KM = 53.7 MPG (UK)
1.2L CVT avg (70 cars) = 41.2 MPG (US) = 5.7 L/100 km = 49.4 MPG (UK.)
1.0L 5MT avg (03 cars) = 45.1 MPG (US) = 5.2 L/100 KM = 54.2 MPG (UK)

Euro Mirages are doing better.

However, many of the Euro Mirages come with automatic engine stop/start, where the majority of cars in our (mostly North American) database don't.
Had a look through the data for the Mirage 1.0 and only 5% of the cars have the stop start. It is only in the last year that you could actually buy a stop start 1.0.

In the second post of this thread I have now added a table to show the percentage difference between actual real world consumption and the official claimed NEDC combined consumption for several 1.0 lit 3 cylinder non hybrid cars.
  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to cr45 For This Useful Post:
MetroMPG (12-18-2016), niky (12-19-2016)
Old 12-17-2016, 08:56 PM   #15 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
oldtamiyaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,007

UFI - '12 Fiat 500 Twinair
Team Turbocharged!
90 day: 49.6 mpg (US)

Jeep - '05 Jeep Wrangler Renegade
90 day: 18.09 mpg (US)

R32 - '89 Nissan Skyline

T5 - '07 VW Transporter
90 day: 27.58 mpg (US)

STiG - '16 Renault Trafic 140dCi Energy
90 day: 30.55 mpg (US)

Prius - '05 Toyota Prius
Team Toyota
90 day: 50.42 mpg (US)

Premodded - '49 Ford Freighter
90 day: 13.48 mpg (US)
Thanks: 200
Thanked 228 Times in 174 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fingie View Post
a lot of three-bangers here in Europe are now with start-stop. Wouldn't be surprised if it's mandatory by 2025...
There's no need to make it mandatory, it's the cheapest way OEMs have of reducing official cycle consumption and meeting CO2 restrictions.

There's a difference between universal and mandatory. CATs are universal, but if someone comes up with a better way to meet the same targets, there's nothing to stop them. The rule makers only set the limits, it's up to the engineers as to how they want to meet them.
__________________






  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to oldtamiyaphile For This Useful Post:
redpoint5 (01-11-2017)
Old 12-18-2016, 09:59 AM   #16 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
oldtamiyaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Western Australia
Posts: 1,007

UFI - '12 Fiat 500 Twinair
Team Turbocharged!
90 day: 49.6 mpg (US)

Jeep - '05 Jeep Wrangler Renegade
90 day: 18.09 mpg (US)

R32 - '89 Nissan Skyline

T5 - '07 VW Transporter
90 day: 27.58 mpg (US)

STiG - '16 Renault Trafic 140dCi Energy
90 day: 30.55 mpg (US)

Prius - '05 Toyota Prius
Team Toyota
90 day: 50.42 mpg (US)

Premodded - '49 Ford Freighter
90 day: 13.48 mpg (US)
Thanks: 200
Thanked 228 Times in 174 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr View Post
Apart from a few Volvo hybrid buses that were tested in my hometown, I still haven't seen any other Diesel fitted with start-stop. My main concern would be about the effects to the particulate filter due to an increased amount of colder starts due to the engine not producing enough heat to promote the regen cycle in-between some shorter runs.
Stop/ Start is actually more common on diesels. Eg Renault Kangoo and Fiat Doblo have S/S on their diesels, but it's not an option on petrol versions. I think all Euro diesels across the board have it, no doubt because they're all very close to various emissions limits.

I have S/S on my Trafic and while it's early days, I don't seem to be getting a lot of DPF regen cycles. Sitting and idling doesn't do a DPF any good either, the EGT's are low and so it's just filling with soot, it may well be better to stop the engine. Of course, S/S is inhibited during a DPF regen.
__________________






  Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2016, 02:00 PM   #17 (permalink)
Furry Furfag
 
Baltothewolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Apple Valley
Posts: 1,891

The Pod! - '00 Honda Insight 3DR DX (A/C)
Gen-1 Insights
90 day: 58.14 mpg (US)

Winsight - '00 Honda Insight
90 day: 58.99 mpg (US)
Thanks: 67
Thanked 319 Times in 250 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fingie View Post

Cool suit, Balto
Thanks! I'm loving it.
__________________

  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2016, 12:23 PM   #18 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Philippines
Posts: 1,770
Thanks: 853
Thanked 360 Times in 256 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
And sample size.

For comparison, on the Mirage forum, we've got 142 owners reporting 3569 fills over 1 million+ miles / 1.6m km.

When broken down by drivetrain type:

1.2L 5MT avg (69 cars) = 44.8 MPG (US) = 5.3 L/100 KM = 53.7 MPG (UK)
1.2L CVT avg (70 cars) = 41.2 MPG (US) = 5.7 L/100 km = 49.4 MPG (UK.)
1.0L 5MT avg (03 cars) = 45.1 MPG (US) = 5.2 L/100 KM = 54.2 MPG (UK)

Euro Mirages are doing better.

However, many of the Euro Mirages come with automatic engine stop/start, where the majority of cars in our (mostly North American) database don't.
Could average highway speeds have something to do with that, however?

What are the 1.0s on Mirage Forum? Euro? Canadian?

Considering the Euro 1.2 is getting economy better than most 1.0s, that kind of matches my experience with the Mirage versus the 1.0 competition... the only 1.0s that match or exceed it locally are the Suzukis, as the Indian (zero star crash rating) Alto is much lighter and the Indian Celerio (better than zero) is just as light but equipped with a good CVT.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2016, 12:30 PM   #19 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 19,000

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
90 day: 67.58 mpg (US)

ForkenSwift - '92 Geo Metro EV
Last 3: 95.68 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 38.25 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,811
Thanked 4,479 Times in 2,239 Posts
The 1.0's are all Euro. No 1.0's Mirages in Canada either.

And yes, highway speeds could have a lot to do with it. Also, the CVT owners may (who knows?) be doing more urban driving, lowering their average vs. the manual drivers.
__________________
Latest mods test: 15 mods = 15% MPG improvement: A-B test, 2007 Honda Civic 1.8L, 5-speed
Ecodriving test:
Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown: Nissan Micra 1.6L



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2016, 06:37 PM   #20 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: ireland
Posts: 28
Thanks: 0
Thanked 19 Times in 8 Posts
Era of Small Engines in Europe Coming to an end

The Era Of Small Engines In Europe Could Be Coming To An End | car News @ Top Speed

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com