Are 4 wheel drive passenger vehicles wasting precious resources?

[dremd]

Originally Posted by Who

Most truly don't. That said, AWD handles better than FWD or RWD, even on perfectly dry roads. With some vehicles there is none or little rated difference in mileage although it's obvious there has to be some type of penalty given that you're tacking on several hundred pounds of additional metal and fluids.

Just having a 4th tire on a vehicle is wasteful. With a single rear wheel and drive going to that wheel, a differential isn't needed.

I Disagree

There was a time that I agreed, but then I autoXed a WRX. Pushes through the corners, have to approach at a much lower speed, just helps in gaining the speed back. An Excellent driver on the wet will be able to take advantage of this, but most will not.

I've beaten both WRX's and EVO'S (with good (but not GREAT) driver in the) Wet in an 89 Supra N/A auto (1/2 the power to weight, a decade older, and RWD)

[trebuchet03]

Originally Posted by Duffman

I think kind of the opposite. I think those that are selling are doing just that, they are selling and there is nothing wrong with that. If you have a good product people will buy it because they need it and it is a good product.

I don’t need a commercial for laundry detergent to tell me I need it. When I go to the grocery store and go down that isle, I buy the stuff because I see it there and I realize I need to wash my clothes.

Next time you see a car commercial, look and see if they talk about HP, fuel economy, headroom, legroom, trunk volume… or are they just putting up images of car racing around a corner of hearing an engine revving under load. There are countless examples of this but the beer industry is the best example and the worst offender. Beer should be bought purely on taste and price, when was the last time you seen them advertise about either of these qualities, they only promote an image. That is marketing, promoting an image, it has nothing to do promoting the merits of your product.

Take a $5 tee shirt and put a Nike swoosh logo on it and bam, its quadrupled in value. That’s due to marketing because its still the same shirt, and that is why I think that marketing is about promoting inferior products or getting people to pay more for them than what there worth.

Just my 2 cents.

Sounds like you don't like advertisers - not the marketers...

How is that awesome laundry detergent supposed to get to the grocery store? I mean, if they're not allowed to market it, none of the grocery stores are going to know about the product to be able to stock it.

For beer - I only buy beer that advertise on taste and style. This is a perfect example - when you look for dog crap, you're going to find it The problem is, they (good breweries) don't advertise much - so it's harder to find new ones. I luckily found an awesome grocery store that stocks a whole bunch of awesome beer with a stock that changes regularly.

But, after reading your post - it's clear you don't like the advertisers - marketing encompasses a whole lot more. From company culture, development/distribution through final distribution (and yes, promotion).

You can't hate power lines and expect electricity at your home.

This is why I said that I can't expect you to be able to find some awesome thing I made if I can't even pick up a phone and tell anyone about it.

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by trebuchet03

Sounds like you don't like advertisers - not the marketers...

How is that awesome laundry detergent supposed to get to the grocery store? I mean, if they're not allowed to market it, none of the grocery stores are going to know about the product to be able to stock it.

There is a place for advertising, if you want to showcase a new product, advertise new features, get out information about a sale or special, but really take note of TV, radio, billboards etc. how many ads ever talk about price or features and how much of its about image. I think about 80% is purely about image. This has no benefit to anyone and just chews up resources as one of the other posts points out.

If I wanted to get my new laundry detergent on the shelves of Walmart, I simply make an appointment with their HQ to set up a meeting with one of their Buyers. I go and make a presentation, if they like the product and it fits within their store strategy, they invite me back and we negotiate price and quantity and it’s on their store shelves. Most other companies operate in the same manner, I don’t need to advertise my product to get it on the shelves in the store although it might certainly help in the negotiation process.

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by trebuchet03

For beer - I only buy beer that advertise on taste and style.

How does the beer company advertise taste?
They can use the same buzzwords that all the beer companies use: clean, cold, crisp, smooth, no aftertaste....
The only real way to advertise taste and it mean anything is to give out samples. That’s why beer is marketed entirely on image, they really have nothing else they can communicate on their product.

To me that is the clear difference between advertising and marketing (even though I realize in a sense they are the same thing - I am not a marketing major!). Advertising is putting your product out there and communicating something about it like availability, price or features. Marketing is the overall strategy to get people to buy your product, its about portraying an image and targeting certain people to buy your product, it may use price, product placement or even advertising to communicate its message of this product is right for you if ..... (fit our selected profile).

I go back to my NIKE example, they are a marketing company. Did you know that they do not manufacture most of their own products. They simply contract another company to manufacture their product and slap their logo on it along with a huge markup.

[trebuchet03]

Originally Posted by Duffman

If I wanted to get my new laundry detergent on the shelves of Walmart, I simply make an appointment with their HQ to set up a meeting with one of their Buyers. I go and make a presentation, if they like the product and it fits within their store strategy, they invite me back and we negotiate price and quantity and it’s on their store shelves. Most other companies operate in the same manner, I don’t need to advertise my product to get it on the shelves in the store although it might certainly help in the negotiation process.

What you just described is exactly the job of a marketer.... Most (approaching every) company works just like this.

This, again, is why I don't have a problem with marketing. I want my product on the grocery store shelf - I need to market it.

Promotion is a part of marketing - but far from the definition.

[trebuchet03]

Originally Posted by Duffman

How does the beer company advertise taste?
They can use the same buzzwords that all the beer companies use: clean, cold, crisp, smooth, no aftertaste....
The only real way to advertise taste and it mean anything is to give out samples. Thats why beer is marketed entirely on image, they really have nothing else they can communicate on thier product.

First, don't look at the crap words as you described...


Spicy, Floral, earthy, grassy, fine, fruity, nutty, delicate, assertive, etc. etc. Are all "buzzwords" that apply to different type of great beer. And that's just for the hops - there's a whole bunch more if you like malty beers.

So also look for dry, complex, heavy, fine, etc. etc. etc. (I like complex flavored beer that has more than one palette)....

Then, it helps being an educated consumer - if you want a spicy/floral beer - look for something that advertises it has kent goldings hops. Knowing what bottle conditioned/primed means could prevent a bad night on the toilet if you tend to be sensitive to the stuff at the bottom of the bottle. Knowing what "fine" means in reference to taste is a big help. This way, you don't have to actually drink it to have an idea of how it's going to taste.

Then, there's recognition. I forget the name, but one of my favorite beers comes in a very simple/unique bottle. It's an English ale, but when I see the bottle - the name comes back

I like beer - but, moreso, I like tasting beers.

[Lazarus]

I had to go back to the original post to see what this thread was about.

As far as 4X4 If you need it, no you're not. The same could be said for SUVs, sports cars, boats ect.

[trebuchet03]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

If my car was a trike the situation could be somewhat better, but really, what is the fe penalty for 2WD vs 1WD?

IIRC, diferentials are something like 5% of the drive line losses. I think it's also the largest contributor (or top 3).

But that said, I agree with you. The ability for a car to track significantly increases from 1-2 as you're now tracking in 2 dimensions rather than 1....

Now, if the vehicles were small and light..... Then I'd have no problems with 1wd

Spinning he correct tire is more effective than spinning more tires.... For use on roads....

[RH77]

I once owned a '77 Oldsmobile that seemed like 1WD.

As I think about it, don't most vehicles have one "drive wheel"? Most of the torque is sent to a preferred wheel -- I know that's old school, but without a limited-slip diff, what's the difference? ...the newer FWD cars I've driven tend to fight between the two in snowy/icy conditions.

Is the idea to save on weight and rotational losses?

I will admit, the most tractive effort I've had was with an AWD sedan with snow tires. In ice/snow SUVs were sliding all over the place while the power went to the wheel(s) that offered the most grip. In retrospect, it's not needed -- a FWD vehicle with snow tires could do the job nicely.

RH77

[Who]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

In a straight line, diff gears aren't turning or doing anything at all!

And didn't you just say?

all those extra gears and oil and all that extra weight being carted around, and for what?