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Old 07-12-2017, 07:35 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Better streamlining and smaller frontal area will help reduce battery requirements. But I don't see anyone headed anywhere near there yet. As a matter of fact, many of the new concepts are full size crossovers.
.
The VW XL1 has a CdA 3.05 ft^2 and so could get by with half the battery and quick charge in half time.
.
The streamlined electric motorcycles in Vetter competitions achieve 101 Wh/ mile, 336 mpgE, in real world runs with 55 mph average moving speeds.

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Old 07-12-2017, 10:06 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Lithium is a common element, and it can be recycled.

With smaller more efficient vehicles, we can get the job done with a lot smaller batteries.

And VW may be overestimating what is required, as well.
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:12 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Last time I checked it's not economical to recycle lithium batteries.
Their non toxic nature and lithiums reactivity make it easier just to toss it in a land fill.
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:33 AM   #14 (permalink)
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It will be when gigafactory scale recycling of automotive size batteries gets established.
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And newer large capacity batteries with careful thermal and electrical management last 3,000 partial cycles. 400,000 miles. With near zero calendar degradation.
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Old 07-12-2017, 12:43 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I think the answer is smaller batteries and on the road charging. One experimental bus line in Salt Lake City is using the bus stops to inductively charge small sets of batteries. Fewer batteries required. We could inductively charge cars while they drive. Technology is already here.
I think a better fast charger network would be good enough to make smaller batteries more feasible. Right now, a 200+ mile range EV is what I would need to replace my Prius for the driving I generally do. But if there were fast chargers every 30-40 miles along those drives, I could probably get away with an ~80 mile range EV (though ~120 would make the number of stops to charge more reasonable). Tesla of course has the range and charger network to support distance driving, but I don't have Tesla money, nor do I want a large luxury car.

Looking at charger maps, it looks like some parts of the northeast and west coast are about at that point. In Utah, though, they're quite rare. The closest Chademo or CCS charger to me is 52 miles away, with several more down in SLC. However, most of those are at dealers or parking garages, so availability after business hours is hit and miss.
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Old 07-12-2017, 12:52 PM   #16 (permalink)
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If a person regularly needs to travel more than the range of an EV, then it's the wrong tool for the job. It costs much more than gasoline to quick charge an EV, and it takes much longer to "refuel", and you have to stop more frequently.

An EV is the right tool for shorter trips within the range of the battery, where the owner has access to charging either at home or at work.

I view the fast charge network as a last resort; for rare occasions where I'm unexpectedly running low on charge, or moving across country.

We don't need fast chargers to be as commonplace as gas stations. The point is that the "gas station" is at home. We need just enough chargers that EVs can get by in a pinch, or travel longer distances if the driver chooses to.
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Old 07-12-2017, 12:59 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I don't think anyone is going to spend a few billion dollars on a giga recycling center, then recycle batteries at a loss.
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Old 07-12-2017, 01:29 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The Tesla Gigafactory HAS A RECYCLING OPERATION in the factory. If a lithium shortage is the problem - then recycling it WILL be worthwhile. Duh.
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Old 07-12-2017, 01:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
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The Tesla Gigafactory HAS A RECYCLING OPERATION in the factory. If a lithium shortage is the problem - then recycling it WILL be worthwhile. Duh.
... and all this time I thought deepsea offshore fracking would be the answer to lithium shortages.
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Old 07-12-2017, 01:55 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
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It costs much more than gasoline to quick charge an EV
But does it have to, or are we just seeing an early adopter premium added on until the chargers get more regular use?
Quote:
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We don't need fast chargers to be as commonplace as gas stations. The point is that the "gas station" is at home. We need just enough chargers that EVs can get by in a pinch, or travel longer distances if the driver chooses to.
I'm not saying they should be as common as gas stations, more like as common as Walmart. If they're not common, then they're not very useful in a pinch because you won't be able to reach it or the only one you can reach ends up being out-of-order.

I think it makes more sense to have most EVs going around with 30-40kwh batteries and plenty of places to charge for those occasional trips than to haul around a 60+kwh battery just in case you want to make a trip (which you'll still probably need to charge on any decent trip anyway). It's because of the lack of chargers that a larger battery is needed or wanted to help with reducing range anxiety.

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