Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now

Now available from EcoModder: ScanGauge II fuel economy gauge.  Click for details.  

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-15-2012, 09:00 PM   #1 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Oregon
Posts: 155
Thanks: 0
Thanked 40 Times in 29 Posts
Better Machining = Better efficiency

Machining a Better Piston Engine | New Energy and Fuel

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2012, 09:21 PM   #2 (permalink)
V8 guy
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico
Posts: 2,504

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 38
Thanked 350 Times in 266 Posts
That link isn't working for me, its my computer.

During the 1940s tighter tollerances used at one of the GMs engine factories caused the old buick engines produced there to have roughly 20% more power and fuel economy than the same engine produced at the other engine plants.

When I put my diesel engine together I spent hours grinding out .018'' top, .014'' second and .015'' oil ring gaps on my engine, which is really pushing it on a turbo motor.
Tolarances on piston ring gaps like that will never come out of a GM, ford, dodge, honda, toyota, hyundai or kia factory.
Also floated the piston wrist pins with about a .001'' gap, as far as I know most pistons wrist pins are still push fit.
Then I went through 3 sets of main bearings to get the main bearing fit I was after.
Also ported the cylinder heads.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1985 chevy camaro mostly stock.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to oil pan 4 For This Useful Post:
88FieroGT (11-18-2012)
Old 11-18-2012, 03:49 AM   #3 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 52
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I saw a thumbs up on the thanks , figured close enough. I like your attitude
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 04:12 AM   #4 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: United States
Posts: 905

spyder - '00 Toyota MR2 Spyder
House of Tudor
90 day: 31.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 54
Thanked 89 Times in 74 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
When I put my diesel engine together I spent hours grinding out .018'' top, .014'' second and .015'' oil ring gaps on my engine, which is really pushing it on a turbo motor.
Tolarances on piston ring gaps like that will never come out of a GM, ford, dodge, honda, toyota, hyundai or kia factory.
Also floated the piston wrist pins with about a .001'' gap, as far as I know most pistons wrist pins are still push fit.
Then I went through 3 sets of main bearings to get the main bearing fit I was after.
Also ported the cylinder heads.
All I can say is wow, I wish I had the skills and patience to do that.

Did you balance the reciprocating assembly as well?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 09:05 AM   #5 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: muskoka
Posts: 80

Speedy Gonzales - '11 Ford Fiesta SES
Thanks: 7
Thanked 10 Times in 6 Posts
Engine frictional losses are an area of study for engineers for a long time now...
Japanese production motorcycle engines are all good example...
Crazy-high revs, very thin rings, next-to-nothing piston skirts, etc...

I remember reading an article years ago on building a production "stock" race engine...
How they measured and remeasured crank plain bearings to the "upper" tolerance for lower friction, mixed and matched parts to static balanced reciprocating assemblies (rules don't allow for removing material)...
The HP gains, and thus economy, we're substantial....

Have a look at this Ducati piston..
http://www.fastdates.com/PLN.NewBike....58Pistons.jpg

Small skirts where fore and aft load from the angle of the connecting rod push the piston against the cylinder wall...absolutely nothing on the sides where no load exists, save for the ring land area.
200 HP/liter specific output for production 4 stroke engines are practically common place anymore.
Amazing....
__________________

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 04:12 PM   #6 (permalink)
V8 guy
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico
Posts: 2,504

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 38
Thanked 350 Times in 266 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
All I can say is wow, I wish I had the skills and patience to do that.

Did you balance the reciprocating assembly as well?
I dont understand the vodoo magic used to ballance the rods and pistons and I do not have the equipment to ballance the crank so I had a heavy duty diesel engine shop in virginia beach called "gregorys fleet supply" ballance the front pully, harmonic ballancer, crank, rods, pistons and flex plate for $260 if I remember right.

I also machined the heads for valve guide seals since the original 6.2L and 6.5 did not use any valve guide seals.
So now I have the only 6.5L that does not consume any oil.

I also went with low to very low tension oil rings:
Info: Low tension oil rings - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1985 chevy camaro mostly stock.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 04:41 PM   #7 (permalink)
V8 guy
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico
Posts: 2,504

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 38
Thanked 350 Times in 266 Posts
I read the article finely...
It looks like they adapted race motor machining tricks to the production line.
Installing the mains and installing a torque plate with head gaskets in place of the cylinder head has been done for decades.

Heating the block for machinging is newer.

I have read that very well machined block will allow for the use of lower tension rings all around.

Now they machine the bare cool block and hope that torque and heat deform it to the correct shape.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1985 chevy camaro mostly stock.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 10:20 PM   #8 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Corpus Christi, Texas
Posts: 1,423

2004 CTD - '04 DODGE RAM 2500 SLT
Team Cummins
90 day: 19.36 mpg (US)
Thanks: 549
Thanked 280 Times in 222 Posts
NASCAR is the home of this kind of stuff for non-production building. Their engine builders not only have great materials, but know what works at insane levels of detail. Internal friction reduction is very expensive, but oh so worth it.
__________________
2004.0 DODGE Ram QC/LB 2500 2WD/NV-5600 305/555 ISB. 7,940-lb. Stock. 192,000 miles/4,900-hrs @ 39-mph average. 35' 9k GVWR TT. 14.6-cpm solo & 25-cpm towing; 21-mpg average past 44k-miles

Fuel Log
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 10:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 52
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Especially for how many miles they go around on the track , the cost is minimal for the benefit.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2012, 11:49 PM   #10 (permalink)
V8 guy
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico
Posts: 2,504

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)
Thanks: 38
Thanked 350 Times in 266 Posts
The cost would also be minimal when applied to diesel engines that are usually run for at least 250k miles.

__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1985 chevy camaro mostly stock.
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread

Thread Tools





Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com