Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-10-2011, 07:02 AM   #1 (permalink)
Corporate imperialist
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 11,175

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 141.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 269
Thanked 3,522 Times in 2,796 Posts
"Big rigs will have to slash fuel consumption by 23 percent".

Obama announces fuel standards for big vehicles - Yahoo! News

Who thinks that is do able?
I am not a semi truck operator or maintainer, is 23% more possible?
Those trucks get like 8 to 10 mpg and I am sure owner operators employ what ever tricks they can to improve that even if you only pick up .5mpg or 1mpg.

My guess is it would largely be aerodyanmic improvements.
When I moved from virginia to newmexico I hauled 6,000lb of stuff and towed my 3,600 lb car on a trailer. I got 8mpg, then had to drive the truck 50 miles to return it when empty. I still got 8mpg.

Heavy duty pickups having to get 10% better fuel economy is not challenge. That can be done easy, with out touching the engine its self such as with conversion to electric fans, different tires or gearing.
Fans alone or gearing alone would net +10% easy.

15% more fuel economy from a diesel pickup could be had with different tuning alone, no challenge what so ever.


Last edited by oil pan 4; 08-10-2011 at 08:48 AM..
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to oil pan 4 For This Useful Post:
SoobieOut (08-10-2011)
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 08-10-2011, 08:25 AM   #2 (permalink)
Eco-ventor
 
jakobnev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: sweden
Posts: 1,630

Princess - '92 Mazda MX-3 GS
House of Tudor
Team Mazda
90 day: 53.54 mpg (US)

Shirubāarō (*´ω`*) - '05 Toyota Prius Executive
Team Toyota
90 day: 54.88 mpg (US)

Blue Thunder - '20 Hyundai IONIQ Trend PHEV
Team Hyundai
Plug-in Hybrids
90 day: 587.16 mpg (US)
Thanks: 74
Thanked 701 Times in 444 Posts
Send a message via MSN to jakobnev
Wow, those commenters, they're like straight out of South park.
__________________




2016: 128.75L for 1875.00km => 6.87L/100km (34.3MPG US)
2017: 209.14L for 4244.00km => 4.93L/100km (47.7MPG US)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 08:58 AM   #3 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,927
Thanks: 877
Thanked 2,024 Times in 1,304 Posts
In a decade their mileage will double.

regards
Mech
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 09:41 AM   #4 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Diesel_Dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,194

White Whale - '07 Dodge Ram 2500 ST Quad Cab 2wd, short bed
Team Cummins
90 day: 37.68 mpg (US)
Thanks: 112
Thanked 511 Times in 213 Posts
As someone who works as an engineer in diesel R&D, these types of governement mandates & regulations make me want to pull my hair out sometimes.

First off, the heavy-duty truck market (e.g., semi trucks) has pretty much always been the engine application that has natuarally put the highest emphasis on fuel economy. The free-market has naturally driven this. Heavy-duty truck buyers are willing to pay for fuel economy. It's simple to see why. If you do the math you can see that a 1% improvement in FE saves a truck owner almost $1,000/yr. Compare that to the average pickup owner who's hard-pressed to even notice a 10% improvement.

Very few people also know how much improvement has happened on it's own as well. I can't find the exact figures right now, but a while back I remember seeing a chart of average FE (in gal/ton-mile) of heavy-duty truck over the last 50 years or so. If I remember correctly, I think FE has nearly doubled since 1970. All this without regulation. Why? Because the market will pay for FE.

Trucks and engines can be made to get substantially higher FE today. But it's always a matter of cost. We can add additional technology to an engine (like more advanced fuel systems, more advanced turbos, etc.) that will improve FE, but if the increased cost is so much that it won't pay for itself, then the customer won't pay for it.

If you set a standard in a regulation one of two things will happen.

Here's the first scenario:
The standard is lower than what the industry would do on it's own. In this case, the standard was unnecessary, and cost the industry millions in extra money testing the trucks & engines to show the government that they met the standard.

Here's the second scenario:
The standard is higher than what the industry would do on it's own. In this case the government has forced to customer to pay for more FE than will pay for itself. For example, the customer will have to pay $15k more for a truck that gets 1% better FE (a 15+ year payback). Oh, and there's still the extra costs to the manufacturers for all the additional testing to prove they met the standards.

It just doesn't make sense to me.
__________________
Diesel Dave

My version of energy storage is called "momentum".
My version of regenerative braking is called "bump starting".

1 Year Avg (Every Mile Traveled) = 47.8 mpg

BEST TANK: 2,009.6 mi on 35 gal (57.42 mpg): http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...5-a-26259.html


  Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Diesel_Dave For This Useful Post:
aporigine (08-10-2011), JRFlyer (08-10-2011), Kodak (08-10-2011), Piwoslaw (08-10-2011), pletby (08-10-2011), redpoint5 (06-09-2021), t vago (08-10-2011)
Old 08-10-2011, 09:46 AM   #5 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
redneck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SC Lowcountry
Posts: 1,795

Geo XL1 - '94 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Boat tails and more mods
90 day: 72.22 mpg (US)

Big, Bad & Flat - '01 Dodge Ram 3500 SLT
Team Cummins
90 day: 21.13 mpg (US)
Thanks: 226
Thanked 1,353 Times in 711 Posts
I doubt a 23% reduction across the board is possible. Dump trucks,Cement mixers,log trucks and Heavy equipment haulers will always use more fuel. Bad aero, heavy loads and short hauls on secondary roads with lots of stops, just eats fuel.

Also, open flat bed trailers with their constantly changing load configurations.

>
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 10:04 AM   #6 (permalink)
Polymorphic Modder
 
SoobieOut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 307

2006 DaCivic Hybrid - '06 Honda Civic Hybrid
90 day: 45.16 mpg (US)
Thanks: 188
Thanked 40 Times in 25 Posts
This is a good move. However, I see the only way to meet the standards is using much smaller engines, that could be a problem for mountain regions and emergency trucks.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 10:21 AM   #7 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Eau Claire, WI
Posts: 79

Escape #2 - '13 Ford Escape Titanium

C-max - '17 Ford C-Max SE
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 7 Posts
Yes it's possible, and without doing a thing to the engines. Consider the number of absolutely ridiculous aerodynamic designs available for sale *right now* - the Kenworth T-800 for example. Big, square hood, absolutely no curves to the entire vehicle other than the fenders. It's only aerodynamic features are a sloped hood and windshield.
Their T-660 (A so-called aerodynamic truck) is better - the hood is curved and sloped, the grille is as small as possible to still get airflow - but the sleeper is just like a parachute hanging from the back of the truck.

Then look at the Freightliner Coronado and Kenworth W-900 - these two relics should have been retired YEARS ago, although at least the Freightliner has some curves and aero features. There's absolutely no need to have a rolling brick like these on the highway, other than that people will buy them for their looks. I think the W-900 has possibly got the worst aerodynamics of any truck available right now. EXTERNAL air cleaners? Who does that anymore...
I just realized that both KW and Freightliner have snuck air fairings onto the back of these trucks - I'm assuming they figured none of their 'real truck' buyers would notice



Some examples of modern, aerodynamic trucks? The KW T-700 and Freightliner Cascadia (Everybody makes aerodynamic trucks, I'm trying to keep this post short)

Can't find a good picture of a T-700 quickly, here's a Cascadia - Notice all of the aero features missing from the Coronado and W-900 - Exhaust located behind the cab instead of stuck into the wind, air fairings over the fuel tanks ('skirts'), the hood is sloped and narrow towards the front and wide at the back to encourage airflow over and around the cab.
Also notice the top of the cab is curved instead of square like the W-900 to encourage the air to flow more easily over the top of the trailer the tractor is pulling


The aerodynamic differences of these trucks can easily see a difference in fuel economy of at least 20% if not more. We've actually seen some significant differences on truck makes here - sometimes as much as 25% from one design to another.

Also, the fuel economy standard for trucks will be fuel burned per ton of freight hauled at (i think) 75% capacity - so a larger truck won't have a penalty as long as it can haul more freight.

Last edited by p38fln; 08-10-2011 at 10:35 AM..
  Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to p38fln For This Useful Post:
Patrick (08-10-2011), Piwoslaw (08-10-2011), t vago (08-10-2011), UFO (08-10-2011)
Old 08-10-2011, 12:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 5,209
Thanks: 225
Thanked 811 Times in 594 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel_Dave View Post
Trucks and engines can be made to get substantially higher FE today. But it's always a matter of cost. We can add additional technology to an engine (like more advanced fuel systems, more advanced turbos, etc.) that will improve FE, but if the increased cost is so much that it won't pay for itself, then the customer won't pay for it.
On the other hand, you have two factors in play here. One, as discussed above, is the "real truck" buyers, who (just like their oversized pickup-driving counterparts) are willing to pay the extra fuel cost for a truck that looks "tough" and "manly".

Second, once you have a significant market for those advanced systems, they get mass-produced, and the cost falls, just as with EFI & turbos on passenger cars. But unless there's some impetus to mass produce them, they remain expensive specialty items that few people buy.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 12:43 PM   #9 (permalink)
Wannabe greenie
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Yorba Linda, CA
Posts: 1,098

The Clunker (retired) - '90 Honda Accord EX sedan
Team Honda
90 day: 29.49 mpg (US)

Mountain Goat - '96 Ford Ranger XLT 4x4 SuperCab
90 day: 18 mpg (US)

Zippy - '10 Kymco Agility 125
90 day: 65.03 mpg (US)
Thanks: 5
Thanked 53 Times in 40 Posts
The biggest improvement to FE in big rigs is a 60 MPH governor. I just did a cross-country drive from California to Tennessee and back, and I can't tell you how many trucks passed me doing 80+ MPH.

In fact, I never gave a second thought to California's 55 MPH limit for trucks until I tried driving 65 MPH in Arkansas. Those trucks pass you at a +15 MPH delta, even in heavy rain, and it's downright unsafe. As far as money goes, didn't somebody on this site do the calculations and determine that they actually make more money at 55 MPH than 70 MPH just because of the fuel savings?

BTW, MVT has been at it again:



Innovative Fleet Installing 3,500 Sets of Trailer Aero Improvers - Truckinginfo.com

Most of them are now sporting the Trailer Tail. Of course, they were driving 70+ MPH, too.
__________________

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2011, 12:53 PM   #10 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Diesel_Dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Indiana
Posts: 1,194

White Whale - '07 Dodge Ram 2500 ST Quad Cab 2wd, short bed
Team Cummins
90 day: 37.68 mpg (US)
Thanks: 112
Thanked 511 Times in 213 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
On the other hand, you have two factors in play here. One, as discussed above, is the "real truck" buyers, who (just like their oversized pickup-driving counterparts) are willing to pay the extra fuel cost for a truck that looks "tough" and "manly".
Yeah, there are always going to be people out there who are going to be stupid, but you don't need to outlaw stupid. Natural forces have a tendency to take care of that. If trucking company A spends thousands and thousands more on fuel than trucking company B, company B will have higher profits and grow. company A will loose money and eventually go bankrupt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
Second, once you have a significant market for those advanced systems, they get mass-produced, and the cost falls, just as with EFI & turbos on passenger cars. But unless there's some impetus to mass produce them, they remain expensive specialty items that few people buy.
There is an impetus to mass produce them: profit. If a company can come up with a better technology and come up with a way to make it affordable then they will gain an advantage over they're lower-tech copmpetitors and make more money. Look at what's happened with Detroit Diesel's new DD15 engine with a turbo compound. It gets better FE than competitors and their market share is increasing.

__________________
Diesel Dave

My version of energy storage is called "momentum".
My version of regenerative braking is called "bump starting".

1 Year Avg (Every Mile Traveled) = 47.8 mpg

BEST TANK: 2,009.6 mi on 35 gal (57.42 mpg): http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...5-a-26259.html


  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com