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Old 10-19-2017, 06:53 PM   #411 (permalink)
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"Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled." -Michael Crichton

I often find the truth of any matter to be close to the center of any two extreme positions. Concerning global warming, it seems that reducing CO2 will merely slow the inevitable temperature rise. Given this, we should focus our efforts on preparing for warmer environments rather than expecting human nature to accept austerity, and science to invent ways to spend our way into global temperature stasis.

Moving away from fossil fuel energy will occur primarily due to collective economic reasons, not due to individual anxiety concerning the environment or fuel supplies.

My attitude with all this is to worry about the things I am likely able to affect, and accept the reality of things I'm unlikely able to affect.

As an aside, all things undergo change and are ultimately unsustainable. No government, species, climate, or person can go on unchanged indefinitely. Trump shall pass, global warming fear will pass, and eventually our respective governments will pass.

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Old 10-19-2017, 07:32 PM   #412 (permalink)
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I'm shooting for a viable and rich human society sharing a diverse planet Earth in 100 Million years.
.
In the mid time frame, our decisions that we make in the next 20 years will determine the level of misery they must endure in order to coast back down to a sustainable population of a couple Billion 2-500 years from now. If we did everything as best as possible, it might be pretty painless. But there is so much momentum and tradition against this even at the evolutionary level of our limbic systems. Constant growth. It's who we are. hopefully we will become truly sapient and change to deserve our name.
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Old 10-19-2017, 09:25 PM   #413 (permalink)
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I'm shooting for a viable and rich human society sharing a diverse planet Earth in 100 Million years.
.
In the mid time frame, our decisions that we make in the next 20 years will determine the level of misery they must endure in order to coast back down to a sustainable population of a couple Billion 2-500 years from now. If we did everything as best as possible, it might be pretty painless. But there is so much momentum and tradition against this even at the evolutionary level of our limbic systems. Constant growth. It's who we are. hopefully we will become truly sapient and change to deserve our name.
If there are too many people, the earth will sort it out eventually. Disease/fire/war etc etc will spread most quickly in the densely populated areas, which are the main contributors to the problems you have in the first place.

We have a nice diverse gene pool right now. Nature will eventually sort out the ones who are weak. Its a matter of time. How much time? Nobody knows, but the planet will destroy humans beyond recovery before we destroy the planet beyond recovery.

Keep doing your rain dances, though. Its cute, and its natural. All societies have created boogiemen to fear, worship, and/or manipulate the masses with.
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Old 10-19-2017, 09:33 PM   #414 (permalink)
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If there are too many people, the earth will sort it out eventually.
The idea is that we should use our knowledge and experience to work toward a sustainable future without the misery that you accept as inevitable.
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Old 10-19-2017, 10:31 PM   #415 (permalink)
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The idea is that we should use our knowledge and experience to work toward a sustainable future without the misery that you accept as inevitable.
Shielding our species from evolutionary mechanisms for many generations will not provide humans with a future that circumnavigates the miserable future that will be caused by doing so.
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Old 10-20-2017, 01:28 AM   #416 (permalink)
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Any solution that requires 'many generations' is a non-starter.

We've known enough only since the 1970s (according to Buckminster Fuller) to provide for the ongoing success of humanity. There were 30 or 40 years of lag, but steps in the right direction take you in the right direction. And it gets easier as you go.
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Old 10-20-2017, 10:01 AM   #417 (permalink)
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Shielding our species from evolutionary mechanisms for many generations will not provide humans with a future that circumnavigates the miserable future that will be caused by doing so.
I'll never be ready to just throw in the towel. Everything we can do and the sooner we do it will help the transition to sustainability. We have been making many mistakes. It's who we are as a modern world hijacks our stone age hunter/ gatherer brains. But there are more and more people becoming aware. So I still see light.
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Old 10-20-2017, 10:37 AM   #418 (permalink)
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Aorist rods were devices used in a now happily abandoned form of energy production. When the hunt for new sources of energy had at one point got particularly frantic, one bright young chap suddenly spotted that one place which had never used up all its available energy was - the past. And with the sudden rush of blood to the head that such insights tend to induce, he invented a way of mining it that very same night, and within a year huge tracts of the past were being drained of all their energy and simply wasting away. Those who claimed that the past should be left unspoilt were accused of indulging in an extremely expensive form of sentimentality. The past provided a very cheap, plentiful and clean source of energy, there could always be a few Natural Past Reserves set up if anyone wanted to pay for their upkeep, and as for the claim that draining the past impoverished the present, well, maybe it did, slightly, but the effects were immeasurable and you really had to keep a sense of proportion.

It was only when it was realised that the present really was being impoverished, and that the reason for it was that those selfish plundering wastrel *******s up in the future were doing exactly the same thing, that everyone realised that every single aorist rod, and the terrible secret of how they were made would have to be utterly and forever destroyed. They claimed it was for the sake of their grandparents and grandchildren, but it was of course for the sake of their grandparent's grandchildren, and their grandchildren's grandparents.
Using fossil fuels to make things that harness energy is a net gain. Taking the position that we have not yet done enough of that to eliminate the need for fossil fuels is... intentionally shortsighted and misses the point- using a gallon of oil to produce, transport etc. a solar water panel produces a lot more heat over time than simply transporting that gallon to be burned for electricity and heat, and a wind turbine that requires lubricants and hydraulics still produces more electricity than we'd get from burning those oils.

The fact that it takes fossil fuels to produce this wonderful RE equipment only means we haven't made enough yet, and the fact that we still have fossil fuels easily available means now is exactly the right time to produce them.
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Old 10-20-2017, 10:58 AM   #419 (permalink)
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The fact that it takes fossil fuels to produce this wonderful RE equipment only means we haven't made enough yet, and the fact that we still have fossil fuels easily available means now is exactly the right time to produce them.
True. But the amount of energy we get from fossil fuels is immense and time is running short. We need to do more and faster. Replacing liquid fuels will be the hardest. But the sooner we start shifting whatever demand we can get at first will stretch the remaining supply to buy more time for the more difficult aspects of getting to zero. The first obvious move that is within our grasp right now is the transition of all personal transportation to electric drive. With an emphasis on practicality and efficiency and not luxury.
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Along with a new social awareness concerning overpopulation and over consumption.
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Old 10-20-2017, 11:07 AM   #420 (permalink)
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NASA just released a paper on the direct relationship between solar flare activity, proton storm and CME effects on global weather. There is an undeniable relationship between the number and strength of hurricanes and the intensity of geomagnetic storms.
Sorry believers this wild hurricane season wasn't caused by man made global warming.

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