Craig Vetter Quote...

[alvaro84]

Now I kind of understand his point.
And I also know that even if I lived there, I'd never participate a Vetter challenge. I've heard that his 'control vehicle' chased the participants at insane speeds (like 70mph), which does absolutely not fall under 'real world circumstances' for me. It's extremely rare for me to sustain such a speed for more than a few seconds.

[PeterS]

At 45 mph tail vehicle would be real world for me .

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by alvaro84

Now I kind of understand his point.
And I also know that even if I lived there, I'd never participate a Vetter challenge. I've heard that his 'control vehicle' chased the participants at insane speeds (like 70mph), which does absolutely not fall under 'real world circumstances' for me. It's extremely rare for me to sustain such a speed for more than a few seconds.

I made the same comment to him as there isn't a 65 or 70 mph zone within 1/2 hour of me and of the two that I can get to in under an hour I rarely go on them anyway so 55 is what I'm accustomed to so a vehicle that is "comfortable" at 55 but not at 70 is just fine by me. However Craig is right to make his demands; 70+ IS his typical road condition and to plod along at significantly less out there IS an inconvenience at the least and a hazard at the most. Also I'm sure a regional solution is not in his or our best interests, so the vehicle should be able to handle the worst case condition.

The lead/chase vehicle requirement is a perfectly acceptable solution to prevent competition driving tactics like P&G. The contest is as much about the most efficient vehicle DRIVEN AS NORMAL as it is about the driver and his technique or lack thereof.

[PeterS]

That sounds like an excellent case for extra classes ...Highway and Secondary ? I ride secondary every time I can .

[user removed]

From my front porch I can hear vehicles travelling down I64 East-West at average speeds of 70MPH. A few miles west the speed limit goes from 65 to 70 MPH. My choice when travelling East is to use the Interstate or the older state and US routes at 55 MPH or 45 MPH for 7 miles, then a nightmare of traffic lights that would kill anyone's mileage.

Most hypermiling techniques become practically ineffective at 70 MPH, the peak speed aero drag would be atrocious if you tried P&G, with the exception of Basjoos type of aero modifications (it would be neat to P&G his car at 60-80 MPH and see what mileage you could get!).

On a motorcycle P&G at 70MPH would be worthless on flat ground. Given a drafting opportunity and some fairly strong grades that would change.

Craig's focus seems, to me at least, to be on the aero component of vehicle efficiency.

The last time I drove cross country was just before the National 55 MPH limit was introduced around 1973. In the western states the speed limit was 85 MPH on some stretches of road

My average speeds for all of my driving is close to 40 MPG, which is verifiable on my car using the distance travelled and time travelled component of the factory instrumentation.
I will never be the mileage champ on this forum since my average speeds are close to twice those of the highest (over EPA) drivers. Even Franks 55 MPH roads in my Insight meant close to 12-15 MPG better than averaging 70 MPH.

regards
Mech

[jkv357]

Originally Posted by alvaro84

Now I kind of understand his point.
And I also know that even if I lived there, I'd never participate a Vetter challenge. I've heard that his 'control vehicle' chased the participants at insane speeds (like 70mph), which does absolutely not fall under 'real world circumstances' for me. It's extremely rare for me to sustain such a speed for more than a few seconds.

Agreed - how many people need to run "errands" (the 4 bags of groceries requirement) traveling 70 MPH? Only time most of us are running that fast is on the Interstate, when we have to because of traffic flow.

Did he really require them to go that fast on the roads where they ran the "Challenge"? That seems unsafe. Makes it more of a race...

I ran the backroads on my cycle last weekend and don't think I ever hit 70.

I appreciate Vetter's contributions to the motorcycle world - then and now - but some of the rules just don't make sense to me.


Jay

[alvaro84]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

On a motorcycle P&G at 70MPH would be worthless on flat ground.

I've tried something like 60-80mph P&G when I was i a hurry. It really proved useless, Teresa's fuel consumption was around 4l/100km (<=60mpg, but no exact data just the distance from low fuel light and the filled quantity) - about the same as not giving a damn about P&G.

[redyaris]

There are a host of fuel economy contests with a host of different rules. Pick the one that suit you, and if you can't find one that you like start your own with your own set of rules.

[dcb]

The problem is with the implications of the statement, and how it plays old guard to old thinking about how people SHOULD operate a vehicle. When in fact more and more people DO p&g, and DO choose slower/less conjested routes and DO synchronize their P&G with the traffic lites for little to no penalty.

Q. Would you drive your car this way with your family?
I spend maybe %0.2 of my driving time on the interstate, where I usually only bother with it on the big hills. But pretty much everywhere else, Yes, absolutely. Not necessarily constantly, I mix in some dwl so that I can time the pulses and the glides better with real world obsticles. As a counter question, would Craig carry a family on his freedom machine?!?



Q. Would you drive this way with a Highway Patrolman right behind you?
I don't usually have a hiway patrolman right behind me. I've had plenty of police right behind me in town who didn't give me a second look, p&g blends well with traffic in my experience, and can give you better than hiway mpg.


I hope Craig can clear this up, he is risking alienating some of his largest proponents. P&G and other efficiency driving techniques are things that real people are doing now to reduce consumption and increase energy independance, etc. Few right minded P&Grs would ever make discouraging statements about aeromods (i.e. a competition that sneers at the changes to body style because so few people are doing it)

If the rationalle were "Because we are trying to eliminate variables", then that is fine. But if it is because "we shouldn't be driving that way", even though it works for us, that is a problem.

And yes, I really wear a backpack when going to the store, this actually happens in the real world. It isn't imaginary, or wrong.

[Frank Lee]

I think Craig is simply trying to take HIS econo challenge in a different direction from the first ones, which evolved into competition-only machines and conditions. He now wants competition results for everyman. Now he's saying, no puny underpowered non-practical non-fun machine that WON'T be the first choice of what to drive/ride in a stable full of vehicle options. To that end, there will be no puttering around at sub-speed limit speeds. There will be no wimpy machines that can't maintain the speed limit up hills and into headwinds. There will be no crumpling up into a little ball for a ride of over 100 miles duration. There will be room for stuff, as that is what often happens when people go out and about- they need to carry some stuff. This is all common sense, people. Of course the most objective measurement of all would be the same dyno routine the EPA uses. But where's the fun in that? Who would be excited about the contest and want to build and enter if there was only a dyno run?