E15 fuel may harm your vehicle's engine...

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by radioranger

I read where guys who run alcohol mixes in Go carts were adding 5 percent water to cool the combustion, may be some cash savings here for the daring !

You do not want to add water to Gasoline though, the fuel pump will pick up slugs of water and make it run like crap. Now people do use as little as 160 proof ethanol in certain cases. It burns cooler than pure Ethanol but it has even less energy density. The goal in that case would either be to run in a special high compression engine or to be cheaper than making pure Ethanol. I've heard it's twice as energy intensive to turn 190 proof into 200 proof but I haven't verified it. But I believe that is why Brazil uses ethanol will a little bit of water left in it.

Originally Posted by drainoil

Corn gas certainly has a following in the the hi-po world.

Gas Versus E85 - Converting To Corn - Popular Hot Rodding Magazine

Allch Chcar, I checked with my uncle just for you and he confirmed he put the lid on his mason jar, and screwed it tight to keep air out.

I'm sorry for the confusion. Current Gasoline starts to go bad in about 3-4 weeks.

[shovel]

Originally Posted by basjoos

If dried distillers grain (DDG)and the other "food" by-products of ethanol production is so much healthier than whole corn, why isn't it being sold as human food and being incorporated into breakfast cereals and other food items that normally contain corn. Why is it considered fine for animals, but not for people? Everything I have read about DDG in livestock feed discusses how much you can add to livestock rations (about 20 to 30%) before you start seeing a negative effect on growth. That it is an inexpensive, readily available alternative to corn, but is not a direct replacement for it.

DDG might be true for large scale livestock producers, but doesn't help the guy with a few head of cattle or who keeps a small flock of chickens for eggs who sees the price of corn and corn containing feed keep going up at the local Tractor Supply.

Also it doesn't address the problem of food shortages, riots, urban unrest, and government overthrows in 3rd world countries being caused by the ever increasing price of corn due to the ever increasing demand of corn for ethanol production. The increasing availability of dried distiller's grain for livestock feed in this country doesn't help the situation in the 3rd world for the guy who can rarely, if ever, afford meat and is increasingly unable to afford the corn to feed his family.

DDG is being increasingly pursued as a human food ingredient. The problem with its adoption hasn't been its healthfulness, but rather the cost associated with processing it to be a useable part of our diet. Animals with four stomachs who are accustomed to eating hay have somewhat different palates than we do.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ddg+food+grade

It's true you can't feed your animals 100% DDG, nor can they grow on 100% of any other single diet.

[Xist]

Originally Posted by basjoos

Also it doesn't address the problem of food shortages, riots, urban unrest, and government overthrows in 3rd world countries being caused by the ever increasing price of corn due to the ever increasing demand of corn for ethanol production. The increasing availability of dried distiller's grain for livestock feed in this country doesn't help the situation in the 3rd world for the guy who can rarely, if ever, afford meat and is increasingly unable to afford the corn to feed his family.

Had I not hidden my textbook I would be reading it right now, instead of in the far-more-interesting forums. My original Bachelor's was in Spanish and I had a painfully politically-correct professor once rant about European-Americans taking food away from hard-working Latinos.

I have a poor memory. I think that part of it is that I like to be positive and I try to forget negative experiences, like sitting through that class. I do not have any idea what adjectives she used for the aforementioned "European-Americans," just that it was negative. I did not have any idea how that was supposed to be related to a book from 1905 that we read or why she insisted on speaking in Spanglish.

I am currently taking both Anatomy and Physics. I try to prepare for the first test in a new class, but do not worry too much, once I have taken a test I know how to prepare for the next one. Each of these professors drops our lowest test score.

That Spanglish professor only had one test--after the drop\add deadline, and I scored a 25%.

So, I understand the idea that increasing demand for corn is a hardship for some, and I hate to think of people starving over my fuel blend. I just had a bad experience with an unreasonable professor, so I am biased against anything that she said.

I understood that adding ethanol was supposed to decrease pollution, but it does not seem like it works out well. I had not heard about that, so I did a quick search, and skimmed . It did not sound promising.

Sometimes a flying carpet sounds great!

[Xist]

Originally Posted by roosterk0031

E15 has about 2% less energy than E10, I doubt many carb's are tuned that close that 2% less with make them run lean.

According to With only 2/3 the energy of gasoline, ethanol costs more per mile, ethanol has 65.5% the energy of gasoline. I had not realized that it was that bad, but it would need to be for people complain about one part per ten or twenty.

So, the government's solution is to require more of it?

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by Xist

According to With only 2/3 the energy of gasoline, ethanol costs more per mile, ethanol has 65.5% the energy of gasoline. I had not realized that it was that bad, but it would need to be for people complain about one part per ten or twenty.

So, the government's solution is to require more of it?

This has been discussed multiple times just on this forum. Ethanol is more expensive than Gasoline per energy unit, especially now due to high corn prices. Ethanol is way to reduce Petroleum consumption and it even increases the octane rating so it's effectively a cheaper high octane additive. Toulene is a common octane booster used and it's way more expensive than Gasoline. Energy density is a relatively minor issue, infact Ethanol can increase the energy efficiency just from the effect on the intake air. Read up on some of the efficiency studies on Ethanol fueled engines, it's pretty incredible what can be done with alcohol.

There's also the economic perspective that money spent domestically multiplies GDP growth vs Imports but that's another topic. I'm taking MacroEconomics so such things are the first things I think of but I could go on for pages.

[roosterk0031]

E85 has about 27% less energy per gallon than E0, E10 has about 3% less energy than E0, E15 has about 2% less energy than E10. The 2 FFV cars's I've owned got 18% less mileage on E85 than E10, per the energy numbers they both should have been worst. Energy per gallon isn't always = to energy output. So with them E85 has to be 1/5 less expensive to = E10 $/mile. (never ran E0 in either)

With the Stratus I've blended into the 30's and with it energy in = energy out (non FFV car). (numbers in another thread, search E85 for a few hours worth of reading).

[shovel]

Originally Posted by Xist

So, I understand the idea that increasing demand for corn is a hardship for some, and I hate to think of people starving over my fuel blend.

I really wish we could all get over the incidental edibility of corn. If the exact same piece of land was used to grow an inedible crop to make ethanol nobody would ever have argued food vs. fuel.

Endlessly whining that your fuel crop happens to also taste good with butter is like whining that you like to eat paste because it says nontoxic on the jar

[WesternStarSCR]

Shrinking U.S. Corn Supply Trails Use for First Time in 16 Years - Businessweek

"Domestic feed, food and fuel production will consume nearly 89 percent of total usage, the highest in 40 years, USDA data show. U.S. exports, the world’s largest, may to fall to the lowest since 1975 as overseas buyers shift to other grains and suppliers, the government estimates. World inventories as a percentage of use before next year’s harvest will drop to the lowest since 1974, government data show."

I appreciate the passion and research that is evident when I asked the food vs fuel question 2 days ago.

It will not be solved here. Just as peace in the Middle East won't be solved here either.

I think it will be better, IMHO, when cellulosic technology can mature to use the non-food parts of corn and other bio products which may be under utilized, such as stalks, and things like switch-grass, which can grow in places corn can not, to keep up the current demand of Ethanol, without overly impacting the food supply needs of a growing world population.

Anytime your industry or business is relying on mother nature, you are at the risk, or reward, of what it will bring you. Riches or welfare can be in the cards for the same person in the same industry. Non food cellulosic use of bio waste and hardy crops that do not displace food crops would be a great way to SUPPLEMENT the use of corn as well, to help corn have some leeway in keeping up with non-ethanol demand for corn.

Until then, who knows, but the global market alone.

ON TOPIC

To get this thread back on track regarding the specifics of E15, and its affect on the current car population:

It seems the consensus among car makers is consistent - FIND OUT FIRST FOR YOUR VEHICLE:

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news...es-engine.html

http://www.springerpublishing.com/ar.../12-03/t-4.pdf


It seems the experience of people here shows that higher E numbers can be OK for certain situations, technical knowledge of owners, and their particular makes and models and modifications.

My take away remains the same: If E15 becomes available near me, erring on the safe side, finding out what the manufacturer states for the year & model, and telling friends and neighbors that they have to pay attention to things like this at the gas station, will be my prudent course of action.

I think ecomodders are not even close to representing the general public (a good thing), but I think we ought to at least inform our friends and neighbors of the basics, and also give them our opinions as well, and people can decide for themselves if they want to go higher in E percentage than the manufacturer recommends.

[radioranger]

One thing I do know is dont ever get any e 10 near your eyes , did accidentally changing out a fuel pump on the side of the road and they burned for weeks, close call. sometimes you forget to be careful. but overall I think I'm adding some two stroke oil to the fuel for insurance from now on , the truck runs smoother without a doubt.

[shovel]

Originally Posted by WesternStarSCR

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news...es-engine.html

http://www.springerpublishing.com/ar.../12-03/t-4.pdf

.

The problem I have with these articles is that their claims cannot possibly line up with reality.

When they say a phrase like "AAA automotive engineering experts .... believe that sustained use of E15 in both newer and older vehicles could result in significant problems such as accelerated engine wear and failure, fuel-system damage and false “check engine” lights..." -

For starters, using the word "believe" illuminates my "Check Bulls#!t" light.

And by what specific mechanism do they explain this claim? What do they say causes the "significant problems"? Do they say that a difference in lubricity accelerates wear? Sorry, not true. Do they say it damages rubber hoses and such? Sorry, also not even remotely true. Do they say the difference in stoichiometry or combustion byproducts exceeds the fuel delivery capacity of the injectors, or of the feedback sensors? I have yet to experience or hear of any vehicle with bandwidth that narrowly focused.

I'd like to see something with rigor.

Some dubiously biased experts-for-hire regurgitating their 'beliefs' is rubbish, any bottle of Summer's Eve can gush 'beliefs', if it contradicts my first-hand experience it's nothing more than the braying of farm animals to me.