Episode V: The Insight Strikes Back

[SVOboy]

Well, I'm still sad I've lost my ep IV disc, but that aside...

ABG

With the success that Toyota has had with its Prius hybrid sedan, you could be forgiven for forgetting that Honda actually beat them to market here in the states with the Insight. For whatever reason, though, the Insight never became the green-bearer that Honda had hoped. Still, the name is not associated with any negativity, so Honda might be considering reviving it for its upcoming dedicated hybrid model. We applaud this idea and hope it turns out to be more than just a rumor.

Honda's new hybrid model should more directly compete with the Prius as it will be sport a four-door body style and be easily identifiable as a green vehicle. Expected to use a 1.3 liter engine along with the Integrated Motor Assist which Honda uses for all of its hybrids, early estimates for fuel mileage are in the 50-55 mile per gallon range. Much of the structure is said to be derived from the Civic, which could account for its expected price of under $19,000. Also expected are nickel metal hydride batteries which would help keep pricing low. With rumors such as these, we'll be hard pressed to wait until its expected debut at next year's Detroit Auto Show, which, incidentally, is when Toyota will unveil its next-gen Prius. Game on.

[ebacherville]

thats awesome especially if they can beat toyota for priceing, that makes the competition start to drive prices down..

[SVOboy]

The honda hybrid system is cheaper, so it'd definitely possible, I would say

[TheDon]

If they do bring back the insight they could probably improve upon it somehow.

[cbergeron]

Awesome! I'd love to see this happen. 2009 is going to be a landmark year for alternative fuel vehicles/hybrids. It's going to be a great year!

[Red]

Sweet. The Insight Returns! Its great that they can pull the same FE numbers out of a sedan version as they could out of the coupe.

[Daox]

It would be amazing to see the Insight come back. It really is the holy grail of hypermiling. However, I'd imaging the new model will be hampered without the use of lean burn (unless they can keep NOx emissions down somehow). None the less, I'd like to see it come back.

[MetroMPG]

Honda needs a true EV mode in its IMA system, or they might as well not bother.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

Honda needs a true EV mode in its IMA system, or they might as well not bother.

Why? I have an Insight, and as far as I can tell, a pure EV mode would be pretty pointless, since almost all my driving is on highways. It's also not worth much unless the car is a plug-in hybrid: otherwise all the energy is still coming from the gas tank.

Same applies to making a 4/5 seat version of the Insight. It'd be good for Honda to build a dedicated sedan/van hybrid for those that need those kinds of vehicles, but the Insight gets a lot of its fuel economy from being a small, light 2-seat car. Indeed, that's why I bought mine: I wanted a 2-seat hatchback to replace my CRX. The hybrid part just came along for the ride :-) We need more choices in the really small, efficient (& fun) class for those of us who don't have to haul around 2.4 kids.

[Daox]

Not everyone just tools along down the highway. Some people are stuck in city traffic all day long. For them, ev only mode results in gigantic FE gains.

[MetroMPG]

Don't get me wrong, james: I think the Insight is an amazing machine.

I believe EV mode is one reason of several why Toyota has had so much more success with the Prius vs. the Civic hybrid. From a marketing perspective: without exception, everyone I've talked to who has driven a Toyota hybrid has commented on how incredibly "cool" low speed EV mode is.

Also: All Toyota hybrids are either theoretically or currently retrofittable as PHEVs with extended EV range. Non-EV mode Honda hybrids will continue to be ignored in that arena, and Toyota will continue to reap the marketing benefits of being associated with it. (Indeed, Honda's official stance is that they're not interested in PHEVs, which suggests they're not going to do EV mode in the new cars.)

[cfg83]

MetroMPG -

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

Don't get me wrong, james: I think the Insight is an amazing machine.

I believe EV mode is one reason of several why Toyota has had so much more success with the Prius vs. the Civic hybrid. From a marketing perspective: without exception, everyone I've talked to who has driven a Toyota hybrid has commented on how incredibly "cool" low speed EV mode is.

Also: All Toyota hybrids are either theoretically or currently retrofittable as PHEVs with extended EV range. Non-EV mode Honda hybrids will continue to be ignored in that arena, and Toyota will continue to reap the marketing benefits of being associated with it. (Indeed, Honda's official stance is that they're not interested in PHEVs, which suggests they're not going to do EV mode in the new cars.)

I definitely think the marketing part is true. From a hypermiler POV, I am disappointed in the lack of a manual hybrid. Honda provided that in the Insight and "1st gen" Civic Hybrid, so I am biased in favor of those drivetrains. But, as usual, I am in the extreeeeeeeeeme minority of the driving public.

Unless there is a big price difference, I wouldn't be surprised of the next Honda Hybrid is forward-compatible to PHEV. Wasn't Toyota's original stance anti-PHEV?

CarloSW2

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

Also: All Toyota hybrids are either theoretically or currently retrofittable as PHEVs with extended EV range. Non-EV mode Honda hybrids will continue to be ignored in that arena...

Insights certainly can be modified to be PHEVs - people have for instance added a second battery pack in parallel, with recharging from the grid. That Prius conversions are more common is simply because there are a lot more of them. (Which traces back to the fact that since Honda Intended the Insight as a real-world experiment sold below cost of production, they never wanted to sell a large number.)

As for the success of Prius vs Civic hybrid, there's a better explanation: the Prius is readily identifiable, while the Civic hybrid looks like any other Civic, so people who wanted to make a statement bought the Prius. Let Honda come out with their own identifiable hybrid(s), and that will change.

You don't get the EV-only mode (at least in a practical form), but I'd argue that, coolness aside, its usefulness is actually pretty limited. You either use X amount of grid-electricity to go a short distance in EV mode, or you can use the same amount to boost the engine so that it stays in the lean-burn mode for a longer time. Then if you live in a cold climate, you have to run the engine anyway to get cabin heat...