Forget Politics, AGW, Peak OIL, IRAN - THIS IS SERIOUS

[320touring]

Originally Posted by botsapper

Every precious tire patch contributes to energy transfer, nothing dragged along or wasted. AWD GT-R, just efficient @ 1/4 mile.

One of the guys that attends the trackdays I do has one of the GT-R's

Its brutally quick-effortlessly smooth and supercomposed..

He prefers his 12sec slower (over 1.3 miles!) audi S2 coupe

I think its cause the audi is JUST old enough for YOU to be the Driver..

[botsapper]

Originally Posted by 320touring

One of the guys that attends the trackdays I do has one of the GT-R's

Its brutally quick-effortlessly smooth and supercomposed..

He prefers his 12sec slower (over 1.3 miles!) audi S2 coupe

I think its cause the audi is JUST old enough for YOU to be the Driver..

With all of the unheard of hp readily available to non-FIA super licensed drivers, fly-by-wire (traction control, ESC, etc) driving is the only way to save them from killing themselves.
The last Ferrari w/o it was the legendary F40, totally undriveable by their rich owners.
..."It's better to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow"

He probably does not want to mess up his soon-to-be legendary ride. See its skyrocketing prices, deserved.

[TheEnemy]

My wifes 05 Accord doesn't do so hot on ice arround town. The throttle is so darn twitchy, and the feel is so muted for comfort that before I know it the tires are spinning and the traction control just goes "huh". On the other hand my 99 Frontier with about 400lbs of snow shoveled into the bed does much better with less power, no traction control and a manual. But then again it gives quite a bit of feedback as to whats going on even though its less pleasant on long drives.

Last snow (just before Xmass) when we were on the way to the inlaws we were doing 55-65 (normally 75mph) when we got passed by an excalade with fancy rims that was doing at least 80. 50 miles later when the road got worse they were nose first into a large mesquite bush. Almost all of the cars that were off the side of the road were 4X4's, and had passed us at one time.

[320touring]

Originally Posted by botsapper

With all of the unheard of hp readily available to non-FIA super licensed drivers, fly-by-wire (traction control, ESC, etc) driving is the only way to save them from killing themselves.
The last Ferrari w/o it was the legendary F40, totally undriveable by their rich owners.
..."It's better to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow"

He probably does not want to mess up his soon-to-be legendary ride. See its skyrocketing prices, deserved.

I'd agree with that- I grew up hustling small capacity FWD/RWD cars- hard work but rewarding!

Nah, this guy certaily USES the GT-R when he's on track

[niky]

The F40 was a nightmare because it had more turbo ramp up than a Civic on NAWWWS. The F50 had a naturally aspirated engine, and was much more tractable.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

How about one that's wet, or covered in snow? The FWD cars I've driven have been much better in snow than the RWD ones. (But again, that's just my experience of a limited number of cars.)

Yup. But as said here:

Originally Posted by botsapper

More engine & transaxle weight on the FWD was beneficial in having more 'bite' than the RWD.

It's more a factor of where the engine is. Right above the tires. You'll note that in WTCC, which has FWD and RWD cars competing together, it's in wet races that the BMWs really struggle against the FWD competition... though the fact that the FWD cars are bang on pace with the BMWs are more down to creative handicapping than anything else. A mid-engined racecar would have more forward traction than the FR BMWs, but then, that would just ruin the whole thing...

Mind you, I love my FWD. My personal car has one of the best hydraulic steering racks to ever come out in a FWD vehicle, and it's a darn hoot to drive, better than many RWD cars in that respect, but in the end, there's a reason race cars are mostly RWD. It's very difficult to get the balance right enough on a FWD car to ensure both maximum turning ability and forward traction, since the front tires are doing most of the work. Passive rear steer from modern bushings and suspension geometries helps a lot, but a little differential braking or thrust in the rear wouldn't hurt.

Originally Posted by botsapper

Unfortunately, there are AWD d-bags who think they are invincible in heavy snowstorms. They pass at x2 our reduced speeds only to see them later either at the bottom of a ditch or missing bumper covers after meeting the guardrails.

Every time an automotive reviewer states that AWD is safer, I bang my head against the keyboard. This is the most dangerous myth of our times.

Originally Posted by Arragonis

Is that a Mini with the proposed Military Moke drivetrain? Awesome.

Originally Posted by 320touring

I imagine with some creative engineering, they can easily offset the weight of the 4 motors at the extremities by the fact that there would be no engine/transmission/fuel tank etc..

I think the contention is that unsprung weight is worse for handling... with a lighter car and the stiff suspension damping required to handle wheels that are four times heavier (guesstimate) than regular ones, you'd have some problems with keeping the car stable.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by 320touring

so you call a Vrs with 1/2 tonne of PD pig iron up front, and an aygo with a "tube" rear axle well balanced?

Nope - never did. I think in the Helga thread I did note that although she was perfectly happy bursting the egos of PIBs in a straight line, she would fall over on corners. It was a one trick pony, but it did that trick very very well.

EDIT - The Aygo is said to have an "unpredictable" rear end by the "driving gods" who have pushed them hard. I've lift-off-oversteered it once as an experiment in an empty car park, which was fun.

By comparison an Aygo sized car with RWD would be a lot heavier, have a lot less space and would probably be quite twitchy - which is why these things end up being hacked around by "Dwifters"

[320touring]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

Nope - never did. I think in the Helga thread I did note that although she was perfectly happy bursting the egos of PIBs in a straight line, she would fall over on corners. It was a one trick pony, but it did that trick very very well.

HE BITES! Quick, reel him in:

A mk1 gti does that, plus corners (1.8 8v, 117bhp, 860kgs ish kerb weight)

EDIT - The Aygo is said to have an "unpredictable" rear end by the "driving gods" who have pushed them hard. I've lift-off-oversteered it once as an experiment in an empty car park, which was fun.

By comparison an Aygo sized car with RWD would be a lot heavier, have a lot less space and would probably be quite twitchy - which is why these things end up being hacked around by "Dwifters"

Lift off oversteer can be fun- but a lot less controllable than a rwd oversteering car

for reference, this is a mate of mine in his starlet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2BBKaKA0Ss&hd=1

Dunno whether I just proved a point, or reinforced yours

Hang on, think I know now...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukvbi3-w9nA

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by 320touring

HE BITES! Quick, reel him in:

I still have a cold and am annoyed...

Originally Posted by 320touring

A mk1 gti does that, plus corners (1.8 8v, 117bhp, 860kgs ish kerb weight)

Not in the same way - you forget hp is maths, torque is real life. I also preferred the Mk2 Golf to the Mk1 TBH - less twitchy but more lardy and less good looking obviously. George has little torque.

Originally Posted by 320touring

Lift off oversteer can be fun- but a lot less controllable than a rwd oversteering car

..

Hang on, think I know now...]

What a muppet. He needs to watch the earlier video or read the earlier comments about how to control a slide in FWD.

[320touring]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

I still have a cold and am annoyed...

Hook , line and sinker

Not in the same way - you forget hp is maths, torque is real life. I also preferred the Mk2 Golf to the Mk1 TBH - less twitchy but more lardy and less good looking obviously. George has little torque.

I agree, thats why I prefer 2 valves/cyl for more grunt at lower rpm


Happily have a m1/2 gti, I'm not fussy

What a muppet. He needs to watch the earlier video or read the earlier comments about how to control a slide in FWD.

Lifting off in a RWD can have similar effects

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by 320touring

I agree, thats why I prefer 2 valves/cyl for more grunt at lower rpm

Happily have a m1/2 gti, I'm not fussy

Lifting off in a RWD can have similar effects

TDI has far more "Manly Power" then even petrol with 2v, 16v is fine - the VVTi trickery in George is pretty impressive for flexibility - not for overtaking though.

Mk2 - big bumper, in red, with the P wheels please.

But if you lift off oversteer in FWD - floor it and all is well.