The Great Filter Debate

[Johnny Mullet]

I have always been a believer in using quality filters on everything I drive. As a heavy truck tech, I learned that Baldwin Filters are truly one of the best filters you can buy for your rig, car, truck, SUV, or any other vehicle. I was asked about how I know these are the best so I decided to let the filter give us the answer. I took a popular oil filter and compared it to one of Baldwin's filters. Both filters are from the same type vehicle (1999 Dodge Caravan) and from the outside, they look identical except the color. But the inside shows a whole different story............





As you can see even though the pics are not that great, the Baldwin oil filter is truly superior. The Metro takes a "BT223" in Baldwin by the way. You may have to locate these filters from a heavy duty truck garage and have them order you what you need. Might as well get a couple for all your rides. More info can also be found from their main site.........

Baldwin Filter Website

[Frank Lee]

I know Fram bashing is a fun and popular sport... but I've always bought whatever was on sale for el cheapo and oftentimes that turned out to be Fram. In 30 years of playing with engines I can't say that any of them have suffered any filter related problems. IMHO guys like to obsess over oil and filters, and many of them think they are doing their engines such a huuuuge favor by changing oil and filters at premature and excessive intervals. Bah. I've heard enough stories about cars that NEVER had oil changes and how long they went without ill effect. Well, I couldn't do that... never change oil and filters... but I don't have any problem with the factory recommended maintenance guidelines like the guys that think they know better than the factory cuz Dad and Grandpa did it that way (I'm referring to ridiculous 2000 miles change intervals, extended warm-ups, etc.). I really don't understand this obsession with what oil or filter is "superior" either. I mean, where is all this "dirt" coming from? I don't know about you, but my engines' crankcases are pretty much sealed up, and I don't pour dirt into the filler. When I do get around to changing the oil and filter, I don't see any chunks coming out or thick gooey layers of sediment on the bottom. I've drained filters, and opened 'em up, and have never seen any of them anywhere near being plugged up. And if an oil "meets or exceeds" the standards of the car manufacturers and the oil industry, then it'll work regardless of whether it's cheap or not. And, the EFI stuff as a general rule is much easier on oil than the carb'd stuff due to better control of cold start operations and less flooding and over-rich running.

Anyway, the Baldwin may very well be the best filter... I hear the NAPA brand has a good reputation too... but I don't care, the Frams and SuperTechs have always worked for me. BTW, I have a 24 year old 4-cyl car with 300,000 miles on it and it's still going...

[roflwaffle]

I grab the super tech filters at wally's. Cheaper than Fram, and supposedly better, although considering the difference in price I could probably afford to change the oil even ~1-2k miles if need be.

[dremd]

If you are running short drain intervals, then filter choice really doesn't matter (<5K IMHO).

However if you are running extended drain intervals, then filter choice matters.

I was at 16k on my TDI oil when I did the last Used Oil Analysis; it looked great then, i assume it still looks good at 20k. However I am running a wix full flow (at least decent) + oil guard bypass filter so I'm fairly well filtered . . . .

What kind of drain intervals does your shop run on heavy trucks? Any bypass setups, or just full flow?

[Funny]

I have to jump in on this one, because this is the industry that I work in. I am a research and development employee at *, and I test filter paper every day. I can tell you from experience, because my company sells almost all of the filter makers the filter paper that they pleat and put in these filters, there is a difference in filters. We make filter paper to the specs that the filter (air, lube, fuel) manufacturer wants. There are grades out there that are absolute junk, and there are filters out there that are so amazing at filtering they have almost no chance of failure, even if you don't change the oil often, say every 20,000 miles.

Fram takes the heat a lot because, when Honeywell bought them out, Honeywell did nothing with them. As cost rose, filter performance and construction suffered, because Fram was given no additional money to make better filters. So they started using cheaper materials, turning a once good company into a second rate P.O.S. The only filter I would buy from Fram right now is a filter with paper that I assisted in designing. The paper (the trial just completed at the beginning of the month for a production grade, it is now a grade we make all the time) is 87% synthetic fibers, which makes it strong and resistant to acids in the crank-case, and also is so efficient and has such a high capacity, you can (and my boss does in his Integra and Accord) go 20,000 miles between oil changes . My boss has been running the Integra with these filters for the past 100,000 miles, and he sends his oil to be tested every change (wouldn't you at 20,000 mile intervals?), showing no unusual wear.

The Fram extended guard oil filter, Baldwin oil filters (though that paper is likely our competion's paper, Ahlstrom or Lydell), and Amsoil are excellent filters that you can go the distance with. If you choose to change your oil every 3,000, save yourself some cash and use a cheaper filter, Supertech Purolator, Bosch and others. You are wasting the potential of the other filters by not using them for 7,000+ miles. Just my $0.02.

[Ford Man]

I'm driving an '88 Escort with 480,000+ miles (original non rebuilt engine) as my daily driver and have used all types of oil filters, Motocraft, AC, SuperTech, Car & Driver, Fram, Castrol, Mighty, Penski, Purolator and maybe some others. My usual oil change intervals is 3,000-4,000 miles and changing the filter every other oil change for about the last 300,000 miles. Even with that many miles on the car it's only using a quart of oil about every 1,000-1,200 miles. At the last oil change the car had been driven over the usual amount of miles on the last 2 oil changes and the filter had been on for about 15,000 miles. I cut the filter open to see what was in it and it wasn't even near 25% blocked. I'll continue to use whatever I happen to catch on sale. Right now I've probably got 40-50 oil filters on hand that will fit my '88, '97, and '02 Escorts. Most of them have been bought either when someone was going to quit carrying oil filters or at flea markets and yard sales for $.50-$1.00 each.

[bgd73]

I learned many guts of filters come from the same exact place. After being the grimy pit lube guy for a year or so and thousand of vehicles...I found the difference in weight between a new fram with the "extra" be it startup filter or 99% filter and whatever else they got..were the heaviest as dirty filters...upon tipping upside down into the pan, they let out the least. That says it all..I still let the valves smack on the old sube to a 99% fram filter,altho I would use anything that claimed it. it takes a few seconds/minutes longer to close pressure relief for the 99% filter, in the long run it is just that: a looong run.

[wagonman76]

I just use the cheapest filter wherever Im shopping, usually its Fram or AC or Supertech. I also use a longer oil filter than stock, not necessarily for increased filtration, but because it makes a lot easier to grab with the wrench. Ive never had an internal engine problem related to oil, or sludge buildup, so its good enough for me. All my vehicles eventually fall apart around a perfectly running powertrain, due to the rust belt, and run longer than a lot of cars I see in the junkyard. The Celeb is the baby with just under 190k on it, all others have well over 200k and Id still drive them anywhere.

I dont doubt that some filters are made better than others. I myself just dont justify the added cost or inconvenience of obtaining them.

[metromizer]

Originally Posted by Funny

I have to jump in on this one, because this is the industry that I work in. I am a research and development employee at Hollingsworth and Vose, and I test filter paper every day.

hey Funny, the information you just provided should be bolded and capitalized. It's always great to hear from someone with such expertise. As a result, I'll choose my filters a little more carefully now. thanks!

[Johnny Mullet]

Also be aware that if you don't drive much and only change oil once a year or longer, cheaper filters (especially Motorcraft) will rust through.

[Funny]

Originally Posted by metromizer

hey Funny, the information you just provided should be bolded and capitalized. It's always great to hear from someone with such expertise. As a result, I'll choose my filters a little more carefully now. thanks!

I appreciate the flattery, but seriously, I just want to make sure people get the information straight. There is a good chance that someone with a grudge or agenda would spew misinformation in order to further their cause. I want people to know the truth, so you can make an informed decision. We ecomodders live for and survive on DATA. This subject has such a lack of truthful, objective observations that it makes me sick. Please help to keep people informed about how important regular maintenance and upkeep is on vehicles.
*steps down off soapbox*

[trebuchet03]

IMHO guys like to obsess over oil and filters, and many of them think they are doing their engines such a huuuuge favor by changing oil and filters at premature and excessive intervals.

Frank, I'm totally with you as far as engine oil is concerned. I run 10K+ mile service intervals on ye olde dino oil.

I can tell you from experience, because my company sells almost all of the filter makers the filter paper that they pleat and put in these filters, there is a difference in filters.

Funny, I'm also with you - no doubt the materials and construction makes a big difference in the filter.... The root question is, however, does that difference in filter make a difference with respect to the engine. I'll leave that as a rhetorical question...

I too buy the cheapo filters - but I also send used oil samples to blackstone for analysis (my choice is super short service intervals or, for the same price, oil analysis with longer intervals)... To date, I haven't gotten any ill reports about excessive solids, silica, etc. etc. in my oil (other than copper - but that's another story with '00 2.0 Jetta gassers). Perhaps it's causality, but I'm confident that the cheap filters I'm using are doing their job as a filter.

[Unforgiven]

Well from personal experience and some minor training, I simply just stick with Fram filters for air and oil. Never have had an issue with them, and considering only a few companies make all the dozens of "named filters" out there, it is not too hard to get the same filter innards with a different "can" around it. I also agree and recommend testing in doubt, and changing oil more frequently than the standard service interval. Having said that, please note that many quick lube places are actually quoting severe duty intervals as the standard interval. 3 months or 3,000 miles is a good old choice for carb engines, and for cabs or other severe duty vehicles. Common standard duty intervals are often double or even triple the severe duty cycle. Ford/Lincoln often recommends 6,500 miles between oil changes. GM often states 5,000. Toyota for a while was claiming 7,500 which can still be done depending on a lot of variables. My personal vehicle gets changed every 3,000 miles with Valvoline DuraBlend 5w30 (personal choice) while an old 68 Plymouth Fury II received Quaker State conventional 10w30 every 3,000 miles. The Fury I sadly no longer have, but at 183,xxx I pulled the venerable 318 out and replaced seals and did not have to deal with any sludge (ha, take that you Caker State whiners) lol. Reset the engine and it drove for another 100,xxx before selling off.
The Impala, well I dont drive it much currently, so I am keeping a check on the oil when I do get home to make sure it is not acting funny. Now for the Freightliner Columbia ( I had seen someone ask about heavy duty truck engine oil interval ) Detroit Diesel recommends oil changes between 20,000 to 30,000 miles. 20k during breakin, and 30k for normal. Sadly the company I work for wants to stretch this out to 40k, which is against Detroit Diesel recommendations. Now please also remember, while the car is holding 5 quarts of oil, the Detroit in my tractor-trailer holds 12.5 gallons of oil... big difference and with the larger filters, its easier to go a bit longer between oil changes...lol.

[Funny]

Originally Posted by Unforgiven

Now please also remember, while the car is holding 5 quarts of oil, the Detroit in my tractor-trailer holds 12.5 gallons of oil... big difference and with the larger filters, its easier to go a bit longer between oil changes...lol.

Unforgiven is spot on if you are going to have short interval drains on the engine you are using, because the oil doesn't have time to get enough particulates to fill it to capacity. However, manufactures like VW are going to LONG drain interval (more common in diesel, as Unforgiven also mentioned) as the recommended oil change (15 or 20K, if I'm not mistaken). So people that wish to follow the manufacturer's recommended interval, will need to find filters that are long drain interval, that's all I'm driving at.

BTW the majority of the particulates (dirt) that you find in the oil are attributed to your air filter not catching them. If you can, get a filter with a larger surface area, this will reduce face velocity of the intake air and the particles will be trapped easier by the filter. If you acquire a filter that is larger than your vehicle takes, see if it will fit under the hood with some modifications. A bigger filter really is better.

Feel free to wing questions my way, I'll try to answer them as I can, I'll be in the lab all day today.

[tasdrouille]

BTW the majority of the particulates (dirt) that you find in the oil are attributed to your air filter not catching them. If you can, get a filter with a larger surface area, this will reduce face velocity of the intake air and the particles will be trapped easier by the filter. If you acquire a filter that is larger than your vehicle takes, see if it will fit under the hood with some modifications. A bigger filter really is better.

To elaborate on that, people usually change their air filters way too early. As air filters accumulate dirt, they also filter better. So do yourself a favor, get an air filter service indicator and only change your filter when you need to.

[wagonman76]

Originally Posted by tasdrouille

To elaborate on that, people usually change their air filters way too early. As air filters accumulate dirt, they also filter better. So do yourself a favor, get an air filter service indicator and only change your filter when you need to.

They do filter better when dirty, because the pores get smaller. They are also more restrictive when dirty, hurting mpg. I am not familiar with an automotive filter service indicator, but where I work we deal with industrial filtering and use a differential pressure gauge spanning both sides of the filter to monitor filter restriction.

[Funny]

Originally Posted by tasdrouille

As air filters accumulate dirt, they also filter better. So do yourself a favor, get an air filter service indicator and only change your filter when you need to.

Tas is correct.
This phenomena is called initial blind-off. It happens when the largest pores in a filter fill up, or blind-off, leaving the smaller holes to filter the incoming air (or oil). This increases efficiency as the particulates accumulate on/in the filter media. So having a dirty (not ridiculously dirty, we all know what a reasonable about of filth is ) filter is actually more efficient than a brand new filter.

The only thing that changes with the filter is the differential pressure. As holes in the filter blind-off, it becomes harder to get the air (or oil) through the filter, thus pressure goes up. This is compensated for in newer cars with ECUs by using the Lambda (O2) sensor behind the catalytic converter to adjust the stoichiometric mix. It is a big problem with carburetted vehicles because as differential pressure goes up, more gas is added to the mix and stoichiometry is not maintained. That is why you still hear people saying that a dirty air filter is bad for gas mileage, because it used to apply to cars. It no longer has much of an effect on newer vehicles , though it still applies to older ones.

So change your air filter when it is damaged or too dirty to see sunlight through. Otherwise it is a waste of a perfectly good filter. And everyone knows how ecomodders feel about waste .

[Funny]

I love how wagonman and I posted at the exact same time, saying basically the same thing .

[dremd]

Originally Posted by wagonman76

They (air filters) are also more restrictive when dirty, hurting mpg.

I disagree; that was true with carburetors, but with FI (any type I can think of) it should just cause you to run the throttle plate a little more open.

Here is the air filter minder (brand) I run in the TDI Filter Minder, Automobile Parts, Air Filter, Fuel Monitor, Car Accessories, Engineered Products I got it because they were common on 7.3 PSD's when I toyed with them.

[Zukibot]

I like the Wix...

It uses a silicone ADBV over the nitrile, and has 8 inlet holes instead of the standard 6.