HHO: Good, bad, or ugly?

[niky]

Originally Posted by HydroJim

My only explanation is that the extra energy comes from the water, but I'm really not sure why it works. It would be nice to know.

The most likely explanation is simply that you're running leaner with your PCM re-programming but within the safety limits of the system, or that the added volume of air alters the MAP/MAF readings. Without testing for EGTs and O2 at the tailpipe, you can't say for sure that it's the kit producing the results.

An even better (and cheaper, from an energy point of view) increase to knock resistance by simply injecting water into the engine. This will allow you to run very lean with less heat and less emissions.

[oil pan 4]

Aeromods are proven and most are cheap, it would be best to stick with those.

[Photonfanatic]

Well once you get those on you're going to move on to other things. Plenty of people here seem to be past that point.

Originally Posted by niky

The most likely explanation is simply that you're running leaner with your PCM re-programming but within the safety limits of the system..

Seems like this might be a viable ecomodding method as well. Maybe you could safely lean out something like... 10% of the total fuel used without harming anything. That's a 10% boost in gas mileage if so. A big jump for a lot of people here.

[spacer]

Originally Posted by Photonfanatic

Well then in the end, I guess the question would have to be this: If you add a certain amount of hydrogen, and oxygen, into a combustion cylinder with gasoline, do you get more bang? If you do, it works. If you don't it doesn't work. No one here has explained why this wouldn't work. Or perhaps I missed something. The only thing that could offset this effect would be the alternator, which seems perfectly reasonable to me. Its just that no one seems to be saying that.

The burden of proof rest on the party making the claims. All I have to do to "prove" them wrong is sit back and wait for them to show me their honest scientific results. I'm not asserting that they're absolutely wrong, but saying that I'll believe it when I see it.


Hint: if they're driving, and the car/hardware is not available for objective review... I don't consider it valid, and will continue to wait until someone can deliver.

[Old Tele man]

...quoting Cuba Gooding, Jr: "...show me the money DATA..."

[niky]

Originally Posted by Photonfanatic

Seems like this might be a viable ecomodding method as well. Maybe you could safely lean out something like... 10% of the total fuel used without harming anything. That's a 10% boost in gas mileage if so. A big jump for a lot of people here.

A vendor for methanol/water injection kits cited a source elsewhere that showed a measurable increase in economy (test case was a VW TDI) but I don't know where it's available online.

But such increases are hard to quantify. Suffice to say, water injection does have a (proven via dyno) positive effect on power production due to reduced temperatures and a denser air charge, so that's what he sells it as, a power adder. Any (possible) economy increase from retuning is just a bonus.... but you'd have to add a failsafe mode that switches back to the "normal" engine maps if the injection system shows a fault or the water/methanol runs out, or it could cause engine damage.

[Photonfanatic]

It seems like running water into your motor would eventually cause damage as well. How long can the valves handle all that corrosive steam? My guess would be not long. You'd need to change them out for stainless steel versions. Which would be costly.

[niky]

The water is not going to be in liquid form long enough to cause corrosive damage to valves... heck... methanol will do more damage to the engine, but unleaded gasoline and ethanol already do a number on your engine and valves, so if it stands up to that, it should be fine with alcohol injection.

This is considering a properly working water injection system, in which the water nozzles are not damaged (and damage is often done by the methanol, not the water) and the spray comes out the way it's meant to, as a pressurized mist, not as big fat water droplets. This mist flashes into vapor very, very quickly when it meets the hot intake charge, and anything that survives in mist form by the time it comes to the (hot) intake manifold and combustion chamber should evaporate when it gets there.

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by markweatherill

I hear that Halogen bulbs are more efficient and burn brighter than old fashioned bulbs, so if you could get some Halogen into the engine, I'm sure it would be a good thing.

Halogens are used to douse fires, Bromium used to be embedded in lots of plastics as a fire retardant.
Halogens generally cause serious corrosion through oxidation.
Combined with water they form strong acids.

It's not because halogen lights burn brighter, that it becomes a bright idea to put halogen in an engine.

[some_other_dave]

Originally Posted by euromodder

It's not because halogen lights burn brighter, that it becomes a bright idea to put halogen in an engine.

I'm pretty sure that was a joke, like taking the plasma out of a plasma TV...

-soD