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Old 03-30-2012, 12:21 AM   #51 (permalink)
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So is there an implication that they shouldn't be allowed?
I don't believe there is an implication that motorsports should be banned; rather an illustration of the dichotomy of our culture's desire to both conserve and be entertained.

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It's remarkable that whenever the economy turns sour people turn to proposing bans and prohibitions, advancing a sentiment that "a thing like that shouldn't be allowed!"

Welcome to the incubator of authoritarianism.
Usually the things that "shouldn't be allowed" are the things we do not possess ourselves, or find little interest in. "People shouldn't have millions of dollars because I don't have millions of dollars". "NASCAR should be banned because it doesn't interest me- oh, and it pollutes."

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Old 03-30-2012, 04:48 AM   #52 (permalink)
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What a sad world we would live in if everything "wasteful" was banned. Grass huts man, grass huts...

It's true that motorsports are wasteful of fuel, but the cost per minute of entertainment, considering the huge part logistics plays in the carbon footprint of any event, is not really any more than any other spectator event.

Perhaps I'm selfishly biased, being a modifier and a track-day addict before developing an enthusiasm for hyper-miling, but I firmly believe that advanced driving techniques learned on the track can be beneficial to the regular driver. Hell... they should be mandatory... (going the other way in terms of authoritarianism... )

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Aircraft electronics are also pathetically behind the curve. I don't have to turn my phone off every time I get into a car for fear of the whole thing going up in flames.
I'm pretty sure the Mythbusters showed that's pretty much just FAA hystrionics. Cellphones don't affect avionics at all, because they're shielded not just from outside radio signals, but they have to be shielded from each other... which means modern phones inside the cockpit have less effect on avionics than a powerful 1980's Motorola has on your car radio...
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:16 AM   #53 (permalink)
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So if there is widespread popular dismay of something, and the government responds... Are we mistaking democracy for something else here?
Where does "widespread popular dismay" come from? Do you really think more laws, rules, regulations and prohibitions will solve anything? Direct democracy is not a utopian ideal or a perfect system of government. At its worst it is nothing more than mob rule.

Just because an idea becomes "popular" or "widespread" does not necessarily mean it will be beneficial or just. To the contrary, history has shown that it often is neither. Prohibition was a good example of "widespread popular dismay" on the grandest scale, to the point of passage of a constitutional amendment - which is really going some to go to that length. Unfortunately the unforeseen consequences of it were not recognized by the widespread, popular majority that supported it.

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Sure, the economy has made everyone uneasy. The largest benefit it had is in the strengthening and reaffirmation of our civil culture. Democracy is going to be here for years to come. (not to worry )
Democracy unchecked is indeed a valid worry. People forget (or never learned) that some dictators like Hitler were actually elected by a "widespread popular" voting populace. With every new law, rule, restriction and prohibition we are relinquishing another small piece of liberty. If it's done in small enough increments, we won't even notice how it was taken from us.

So when you hear that 'a thing like that shouldn't be allowed' ask yourself what the motive is of those who call for bans, restrictions and prohibitions. And don't forget those pesky unforeseen consequences that might occur, should any touted widespread and popular trend prevail.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:38 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Where does "widespread popular dismay" come from? Do you really think more laws, rules, regulations and prohibitions will solve anything?
Nope. Pushing for a constitutional amendment is the thing these days. It gets rid of all those legal issues.
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Old 03-30-2012, 10:45 AM   #55 (permalink)
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What a sad world we would live in if everything "wasteful" was banned. Grass huts man, grass huts...

It's true that motorsports are wasteful of fuel, but the cost per minute of entertainment, considering the huge part logistics plays in the carbon footprint of any event, is not really any more than any other spectator event.

Perhaps I'm selfishly biased, being a modifier and a track-day addict before developing an enthusiasm for hyper-miling, but I firmly believe that advanced driving techniques learned on the track can be beneficial to the regular driver. Hell... they should be mandatory... (going the other way in terms of authoritarianism... )



I agree with this.


I'm a car enthusiast that has to reconcile that with being an environmentalist. To me, a racecar spinning round the track to the awe of thousands of spectators, or even an amazing hot rod turning every little kid's head as it burbles down the street is, to some extent, ok because you're making people smile. The trouble comes when every redneck with an old car rips off the emissions equipment to make their 150HP crapbox just a slight bit faster and louder.

I don't have a problem, generally speaking, with high-end customs and hot rods running without emissions equipment. A hot rod would be a lot less of a hotrod if instead of dumping exhaust through one big pipe for each cylinder it ran through cats and such. However, despite my high-performance intentions with my V8 aspiring musclecar, I'm going to great lengths to retain emissions equipment. Why the difference? because I'm not taking anything away from the car by keeping emissions equipment functional, I'm going to drive it daily, and perhaps most importantly it's just not as special as a 32 ford with a flame paint job, for instance.




Forgive me for not reading through the whole thread, but I would also think that the actual fuel burned by the racing vehicles would be a relatively small part of the pollution and carbon footprint of a race. This would depend on the form of racing of course, but I guess what I'm saying is that in the grand scheme of things the difference between 50,000 people watching a football game and 50,000 people watching NASCAR may be rather minimal.


In more "grassroots" racing, I'd fully support, at a minimum, catalytic converters being added and the number of fuel stops being minimized where it was reasonable. Maybe not on full-effort sprint cars, or 'mountain motor' prostock drag racing machines, but on bottom-rung dirt track bangers and 'showroom stock' class drag racers.


Of course a nice first step would be for some of the people in the sport to acknowledge the damage they're doing and buy carbon credits or something similar to offset. NHL players have started doing this, and I seem to remember reading that the team-specific (ie. not arena or fan-produced) Co2 emissions are pretty much offset, for the league as a whole. It's a case where not flying these guys around or shutting down their practice facilities might not be palatable, but the harm can be reduced.


Another idea (again sorry if this has been covered in the thread) might be restricting the amount of practice and testing allowed. In F1 some teams basically spend all winter testing new cars. It not only wastes a lot of resources but makes the sport much less affordable for the 'little guy.'
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:52 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I truly love motorsports, I go racetrack every time when I just have time and finances, oh and when track day car is in working order.

It is so small fraction in whole picture that motorsports are meaningless for consumption and such.

When people stop burning their lights around the clock, when street lights are started to shut off at night on empty roads? These are consuming huge amount of energy and for example street next to my house sees as an average 5 vehicles during the night, but lights are still kept on and they turn them on when it is still daylight. That same thing I see all over the place, if people are not interested from saving in such bigger things, I really don't see point of limiting motorsports, actually I don't see point of limiting freedom in name of "insert your ideology here", when anything can be adjusted to make things work out better.

Then there are point of motorsport bringing new technology and inventions to all of us, that is if motorsport is not limited too much in name of safety so that there is no room for innovations.

Most wasteful is idea to bying newer more eco would be good for enviroment, buy more, buy new, that is message everywhere and it is forgotten how every new needs to be made, it needs materials to be digged up from the ground, materials need to be processed and lot of transportation is needed, old stuff is put to wastes, recycling is not very good percentage from what it could be and hardly ever matches to what manufacturers claim, they always forget stuff that is not recycled which is quite good part.

There are so many more important things that I certainly don't see point why motorsports would be a target, unless that is emotional thing?

It is not easy to stay clear from emotional thinking, but it is only way to make correct choices when brain is in control and emotion is only advisor, sadly rarely that happens and so we see people buy more new, more eco, which often is worse than using old one, like is case with Audi A2 for example, choice of materials makes it much worse than my old french car, even more so when I have mods installed.

One key issues is not seeing whole picture, focusing only to narrow area makes something look totally different than when putting it into context and looking whole picture.

That is at least what I think about it.
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Old 04-10-2012, 06:52 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Of course a nice first step would be for some of the people in the sport to acknowledge the damage they're doing and buy carbon credits or something similar to offset.


Carbon credits...??? Really...???

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Old 04-10-2012, 09:50 AM   #58 (permalink)
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It just seems funny. The media pushes energy conservation and pollution control to the nth degree, yet nobody seems to say much about motorsports. Seems a bit contradictory.

Not that I mind. I love my F1 and MotoGP. I just think it's funny, that's all.
"The Media" is not representative of the entire population. Most of the media (big cable stations) are liberal. Liberals tend to have environmental agendas and create and edit stories to reflect their believes. The media is not the law or the voice of anything but what directors and producers feel people should know. Why anyone would listen to the media and act like they are a force of good is beyond me.

A good chunk of the population doesn't even believe in man made global warming or that it is as bad as liberals and tree huggers make it seem. To act like buying a Prius and converting your outdoor lights to solar power will save the world is a fantasy and the media lives in it. The fact is that motorsports is a huge market raking in billions upon billions of dollars. There is not a chance that they will go away just because "the media" tells us that we need to stop driving cars or we are bad people.

The entire green movement is a fantasy. Its all marketing now. Go look at the local supermarket. Just see how many products say something about being green or creating less waste. Most of them are a bunch of BS to make you buy a product because you think you are saving the environment.

There are legit reasons to recycle and not waste. There are legit reasons to reduce our impact on the world, but most of what you here in the media is simply hypocritical.
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:28 AM   #59 (permalink)
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This has nothing to do with liberal or conservative politics. It has everything to do with making money. I am a gearhead to the nth degree, love my speed and pushing the envelope in performance no matter if it's 300 mph or 300 mpg. Been at it for a long time, don't see it abating one bit. But I am also an American and a realist, and one thing this country is good for is finding a way to turn a buck on something, no matter what it is.

Motorsports is a multi billion dollar business. So is eco friendliness, drugs, alcohol, tobacco, firearms, baby products, weddings, bass fishing, whatever. As long as there is an ability to profit from something, it will continue to exist. Prohibition does not work, it only instigates ways to keep it going, add taboo factor and make it more succeptible to criminal activity, which then drives the price up. That's why legalizing recreational drugs will not happen; the price of the commodity will drop to nothing and the private prison system will lose money.

Motorsports always was an underground activity until folks figured out how to make a lot of money at it. NASCAR was started by moonshine runners. Drag racing was on the street first and the beaches. Someone issues a challenge, bets money, first one to the finish line wins. Competition improves the breed and the day you stop pushing it is the day you stop getting better.

I have always believed that you are what you eat. Change the fuel, you change the emissions, period. As one other poster said, we constitute a very small segment of the population whether on the eco side or the motorsport side. The challenge is changing the mindset of people used to cheap fuel and good times AND MAKING IT FUN AND COOL. Hate to say it, but folks are immature in a lot of respects so if you keep the fun and sneak the responsible in on them when they are not looking, they'll take it. But if you just put it as "the responsible, mature choice", it implies boring. And people do not like being told eat your broccoli, exercise, etc. even though it's the right thing to do. They'll respond like children, "you can't tell me what to do! I'm grown! I can eat and drive and do what I want!" You most certainly can. Because a doctor is gonna make a ton on you after the heart attack, an oil company is going to still profit from your obesity adding to the fuel consumption as you drive, a drug company is getting their cut from the Lipitor the doctor prescribed, and of course Jack Daniels, Miller Brewing Company, et al are helping ease the pain.

See, it all makes sense.

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