I,ve just assembled a 12 v hydrogen generator with just over 1,700 sq in. of plate surface. It sits in a 20 gal drum and my 1st test was incredible. I'm using 8 plates, each 12 x 18 in, with alternating polarity and 3/8 in separation between plates. My problem is I am drawing way too much current, as the cables heated up fairly rapidly. (I went straight from the car battery) I used baking soda as a catalyst (I used a whole box) which performed quite well. I'm looking for recomendations such as should I lower the baking soda content to inhibit the flow of electrons in the water, or would I be better off with a current limiting device? Or maybe I just went way too far with the amount of plate surface? I'd love to hear from anyone who has tried this before.
I use Sodium Hydroxide (Drano in crystal form)......also, I think you used waaaay too much baking soda. Baking soda fouls the plates quickly, and you don't need much. My tank is about 1 liter and I only use a couple teaspoons of Sodium Hydroxide. Best of luck with your experiment. And if you didn't know, there will be flaming when you post HHO threads, so fasten your seatbelt, do what you want, and don't be discouraged.
using a 95 % efficient alternator to convert to electrical energy.
100 x 0.95 = 95 units of energy.
Using electrical energy to convert water to hydrogen and oxygen (Using highest efficiency experimentally observed 70%)
95 x 0.70 = 66.5 units of energy.
burning in a diesel engine to convert back into mechanical energy (using highest otto engine efficiency that can be expected from a real engine 34%)
66.5 x 0.34 = 22.61 units of energy.
So under optimal conditions you have taken 100 units of energy of mechanical work and converted it to ~23 units of work.
so to save 1 gallon of fuel you will have to burn 4 gallons. Net fuel savings -3 gallons.
so to save 1 gallon of fuel you will have to burn 4 gallons. Net fuel savings -3 gallons.
not a winning proposition by any means.
Taking your calculations for dead on accurate, I see this as ... for every 4 gallons you burn you get an extra fifth for free ... so he should see a 25% increase in efficiency ... Is that so bad? Other than slowing down, no other mods I have done to my personal vehicle have yielded a percentage improvement that high.
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Taking your calculations for dead on accurate, I see this as ... for every 4 gallons you burn you get an extra fifth for free ... so he should see a 25% increase in efficiency ... Is that so bad? Other than slowing down, no other mods I have done to my personal vehicle have yielded a percentage improvement that high.
No, You put in around 4 times more work to generate the hydrogen than you get out by burning the hydrogen.
No, You put in around 4 times more work to generate the hydrogen than you get out by burning the hydrogen.
Note that my calculations are very generous too.
Assuming that the power from burning of hydrogen with oxygen is the reason for the increase in mileage. (it isn't)
Also, assuming that superheated steam after combustion has no effect on the engine power output near the bottom of the stroke.
Also assuming that hydroxy byproducts have no effect on leaning or the internal temperatures of combustion. (They also can have effects on sensors and negative effects on catalytics.)
Also Assuming that the half reactions between hydrogen, oxygen & nitrogen on the hydrocarbons do not result in lower entropy paths during combustion. http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=...fier=AD0640169
Check your chem books there are a good deal many paths for hydrocarbon reactions with hydrogen and nitrogen in the mix.
And lastly you have to assume the guy is going to put that in a vehicle, call it a guess but it looks like a setup I would use if I wanted to be welding, which is another interesting use for these units.
To the poster...
To limit current you either need to
1. Change the amount of KOH electrolite (you usually need very little)
2. If you want full control you will need some sort of PWM circuit very similar to what is used on my electric car
The best method of producing hydrogen is by using very brief high voltage pulses, this helps reduce the amount of water vapor. The number and intensity of the pulses determine the rate of production. Oddly enough this circuit Lead Acid Battery Desulfator
for desulphating batteries works well for stationary cells (at home) if you mod it slightly and make sure to set the pulse width small enough to limit amperage to an acceptable level.
A word of warning...
Although it is not in question that if you take the effort to lean beyond just putting an efficient HHO setup in your truck, you will see an improvement in mileage... you should be warned.
Take care to remember that KOH is generally needed as a reactant and will cause engine damage over time, rust, pitting and other issues (baking soda is worse, salt makes chlorine which can kill you), you must take the time to put a proper filter (minimum) or scrubber to keep that nasty stuff out of your engine. Even distance can help in this regard and definately a 2 bowl (canister/bubbler) technique helps.
Also note that you will not see significant increases in mileage (what you feel is significant and what I do are probably different) unless you lean the engine (I assume a newer vehicle). As you probably know leaning an engine can destroy your engine, the jury is out on how far is safe over the long term but I wouldn't recommend doing it too far without a dyno and temperature modules.
Another definate recommendation is to use Acetone anytime you use hydroxy. Your mileage gains will be greater with the combination of acetone and hydroxy as it assists with the excess water vapor and improves lean run ignition. (it also has some interesting timing effects) Acetone can also be run in diesels but only in small quantities aka under 1.5oz per 10 gallon
All the things I mention are in the public domain and freely available, don't pay for ebooks or information, don't buy kits as most all are a ripoff, build your own circuits and system.
Also there are many much much more knowlegable than me on the issue take a look on the many forums and you should find the information you are looking for.
As for me I do not have an HHO box currently fitted, the dangers outweighed the mileage benefit but I am planning on giving it a go again with many of the things I listed above, pulse circuit, filter, etc. I also plan on using it on an old rusted valueless vehicle to negate my fears of destroying it when messing with the lean dials. As for recommendations on PWM or pulsers I can't give one many are in developement and most recommend building your own to the size you need, I myself do not have a new HHO box on my vehicle because of indecision on this matter (that and I couldn't decide which vehicle to sacrafice after finding out about the corrosion issues).
Good Luck On Your Ventures, take care to remember many things are not as easy as they seem to make work well and there may be consequences down the road. Be prepared for these issues and they shouldn't bother you in the future.
Last edited by rmay635703; 09-04-2008 at 01:10 AM.
Reason: bleh, missed an and
I've got some fish oil I'll sell. It works as a catalyst and also alters the speed of sound in the combustion chamber, effectively altering the flame speed and improving the leverage ratio of the piston/rod/crank system. It'll help with your current problems.
Really, so HHO improves the quality of combustion? What is so bad about the combustion process as is?
I've got some fish oil I'll sell. It works as a catalyst and also alters the speed of sound in the combustion chamber, effectively altering the flame speed and improving the leverage ratio of the piston/rod/crank system. It'll help with your current problems.
Really, so HHO improves the quality of combustion? What is so bad about the combustion process as is?
Hmm as far as I know HHO has no significant effect on the quality of combustion in terms of mileage (perhaps the ability to combust in very lean high compression conditions) and has no effect on energy content in of itself either.
You seem to be the one falling for the BS explanations of hydroxy by asking me to provide a BS explanation.
You still haven't answered my previous question do you think leaning a engine results in different fuel mileage or does it have no effect?
Don't you see by making your foolish comments that anyone can see is FALSE by simply looking at their neighbors car, or guy down the street you ENCOURAGE people to believe made up made up REASONS like environmental energy, Steven Meyers circuits and other BS. The truth is many folks can make an HHO circuit without a dime going to anyone, that improves mileage but because you and others like you are too damn lazy to state the consequences of lean run, KOH in the intake, etc you leave folks who don't know better to put a potentially disastrouse system on their car without knowing risks. Or just as bad install a system assuming guaranteed results without having to do the work of leaning.
I have a feeling you and I are not too terribly far apart, I am very skeptacle of most everything, probably more so than you as is obvious by most of your posts, only difference between us is that I have driven, witnessed and used vehicles that were modded quite well with the works, scanguage, sensors, HHO, acetone, resistor on the map, etc. (they were free conversions by the way, as are most good conversions)
I still do not believe HHO is for many people, only hobbiests and I also strongly disagree with the marketing of HHO as a save all that it is not and giving odd explanations of it along with misleading results, while not listing the all the intensive modifications that usually need to be done.
If you would quit flaming and just give the true facts and warnings THAT ACTUALLY APPLY to the systems you might find the folks in the HHO discussions actually listen to you as opposed to figure you are some sort of nut job and ignore you.
I am curious if you have every tried to lean an engine of any size?
My personal experience with leaning (prior to HHO) was that it ran like crap and usually wouldn't idle.
Acetone and HHO / hydroxy whatever you want to call it are flammable in very very small quantities when under heat and compression they tend to smooth out the motor when run lean and you can actually get the thing to idle without stalling when they are present. Lean run is the name of the game and has always been for decades, mileage goes up, pumping losses down, but at the cost of possibly welding your engine they usually aren't worth the risk. The superheated fuel schemes are also along these lines as were the old spiral carburators.
Anyway, Eventually you will get wore down, I am not going anywhere and generally will badmouth any commercial HHO system that gets posted, you might find me on the same side as you some day.
I also have a feeling you aren't convincing anyone who isn't already convinced because of how you state your responses. By ignoring the real issue you can keep your responses boxed in and in fact some of your previous statements go against research done by those in what you would consider part of the legit hydrogen field. Sadly those that are in the universities generally DO NOT cooperate between each other and the spread of information from them is very slow and generally not open source. If you look there are already foreign countries considering legislating HHO systems on larger diesels to reduce emissions. Obviously there is something to this whether you agree with the explanations or not.
Hopefully someday you get forced into a situation where you encounter things you really don't expect or believe in within your own life. Somethings I have violently opposed I have ended up seeing work, HHO/leaning systems being one of them. While you are waiting for the federal government to force you to put one on your car, I and a few others will probably be using the units with some actually being sucessfull at it.
So what is the real issue? A "technology" that has been around for 30 years and keeps getting picked up based on the price of fuel. Sure, if you can run lean and get the same amount of energy out, you're set. However, either:
1) You're making up the difference with additional combustible fuel. In which case, the arguement is the "additional fuel" arguement.
2) You're citing the old SAE paper where they used LOTS of hydrogen, enough to modify combustion stoichiometry.
In the case of (1), that's an easy myth to bust. In the case of (2), where leaning is better, then great. But guys with PVC in their trunk aren't making enough Hydrogen relative to other intake needs of their ICE. They're just not.
To top it off, seems like the vast majority of guys with fishtanks in their backseats aren't doing anything to lean, or otherwise modify their mixtures.
I,ve just assembled a 12 v hydrogen generator with just over 1,700 sq in. of plate surface. It sits in a 20 gal drum and my 1st test was incredible. I'm using 8 plates, each 12 x 18 in, with alternating polarity and 3/8 in separation between plates. My problem is I am drawing way too much current, as the cables heated up fairly rapidly. (I went straight from the car battery) I used baking soda as a catalyst (I used a whole box) which performed quite well. I'm looking for recomendations such as should I lower the baking soda content to inhibit the flow of electrons in the water, or would I be better off with a current limiting device? Or maybe I just went way too far with the amount of plate surface? I'd love to hear from anyone who has tried this before.
As an inquisitive person who "looked into" the practically of this ( and others) type of "improvement" in MPG of the Otto engine... let me say this :
Gasoline has much more caloric power than hydrogen. What this means is ... by mixing hydrogen and gasoline, you effectively dilute the power potential for the ingested charge ; ie, less of a "bang" , and the "bang" is different - creating a leaner - than- gasoline-only burn. This spells hotter.
Sure. the HHO gas "pops" when a flame is combined with the effluent gas
( from electrolysis). So? Lots of gases "pop"! Your oxyacetlene torch will "pop" real well...but so?
I had made a super hydrolysis unit from various too-large parts & pieces - to use as a bench study rig. Applying switchable power to the electrodes, I made lots of "gas" on my porch steps - and it went "bang" when lit! Great! But...lots of things go "bang". The trouble is...they "bang" ( or "pop" ) differently! Lots differently!
Imagine, For instance, an entire Hindenburg attached to your carb or fuel injection duct. As you go down that imaginary road, you can feed in whatever amount of hydrogen gas to wish...to mix with your gasoline / air charge.As you increase the hydrogen flow to the engine, you won't get far...your exhaust valves will be bright red, your aluminum pistons will begin to melt...as your OVER-ALL A/F ratio turns lean. AND...your MPG will drop before your engine dies.
"Pop" takes on a different flavor, yes? P.T. Barnham said it best....
( The Eschers are nice, though.... I laughed at the "bang" video, too!)
As a follow-up to my last post (above), let me just say there IS a way to improve gasoline combustion. All these "MPG improvers" ( I guess they're labeled "gas savers") which don't work ... except to lighten your wallet ... are going about the methodology all wrong! There is no "magic pill" or " super fluid" you can add to your gasoline for greater MPG.!
But, not believeing something cannot be changed for the better, I kept
looking / trying. Down this long road, I finally found a technique which worked! A little twisting, and the beast got better! I STILL haven't found the ceiling to this mod...but it works remarkably well. Stay tuned while I check on posting ads for sale ( & all this stuff).
To say that hydrogen doesn't improve your fuel efficiency, as well as emissions and overall engine life is...well....wrong.
It may not work on onboard HHO electrolysers but it most certainly will help if you have a supply of compressed Hydrogen.
The best part is......you can use virtually any fuel! That's right....Propane, CNG, Gas, old crappy gas, ethanol, methanol, diesel, etc. just by boosting it with hydrogen.
It also reduces emissions and is said to reduce heat and engine wear.
visit KP and look for roy mcalister's videos. They are awesome.
