Hydrogen Generator Experiment

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Have you folks heard of using (non-oxidized) aluminum to split water, and release the hydrogen?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=10621223
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007...-research.html
http://www.physorg.com/news98556080.html

[Daox]

The need for distilled water is simply to keep the unit clean. As the water is broken down any impurities will remain. Eventually the generator needs to be refilled as it'll run out of water. The impurities continue to build up and will eventually short the generator.

The OP's example is a bad design and 100 amps is a ton of energy. I've seen generators running on 5-10 amps that produce a fair amount of HHO. I can't remember (I have it written down at home) but IIRC there is one that is claiming 60 lph @ 10 amps I believe. This is supposidly enough for most car engines.

The oxygen gets drawn into the engine and is used as part of the combusion.

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by Daox

The oxygen gets drawn into the engine and is used as part of the combusion.

On modern EFI engines would EFFIE's(?) to spoof theO2 senors be required to use the kits?

[Bigs]

^^^ Yes they sell those for EFI engines with o2 sensors. I also saw an adapter for the o2 sensor. It moves it fiurther out, but not sure how that would trick it...

[Daox]

The EFIE is an okay device for altering closed loop mixtures a very small amount. However, once you start leaning things out too much you go beyond the intended use of the sensor and the resolution becomes horrible. Here is a chart that shows AFR vs O2 sensor voltage. As you can see, there is almost no voltage change at higher AFRs.




The $olution? Use a wideband O2 sensor. They allow proper resolution for higher AFRs. All the new systems can simulate a narrowband sensor's signal, and you can set the AFR at which it operate in closed loop mode. For example, I can tell the wideband system to say 17:1 is stoimetric and it'll keep me at 17:1 while in closed loop.

[cfg83]

88CRX -

Originally Posted by 88CRX

I seem like these diesel guys are getting great increases:

Magdrive HHO test results

More results

110% agreement here. For HHO to work, the car must be reconfigured for lean burn. That's one of the reasons it's a PITA to make work. A diesel engine likes to "go-lean" by design, so it is a better ICE for the job.

I have an HHO generator from www.hydrogen-boost.com. just like Daox says, I haven't had any results. However, I have not been willing to implement all the mods required for "the system" to work. This includes MAP and 02 sensor spoofs, and a fuel heater (using waste heat from engine coolant).

If I had to do it all over again, I would seriously *consider* this gizmo :

HydranOx - $400
http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/hydro...x/hydranox.php

The reason I am curious about it is that it *claims* to separate the H2 from the 02. If the gizmo is only sending H2 into the air intake, this would remove the need to modify the 02 sensor, which I like, . But, I wouldn't pump the 02 into the cabin of the car, that's for sure.

I am not saying that the above gizmo is not a scam, I am just saying that it claims to solve an existing deficiency with HHO designs.

CarloSW2

[trikkonceptz]

Hey guys, do me a favor help me make an educated decision on this product .. It is a Hydrogen generator, the website is hydro4000.com

I have seen the product first hand and my dealership is looking to back the product for sale. These guys got their lucky break by giving a unit to the local news station to use on their news van and saw positive results.

Just by using 15amps of power this unit creates hydrogen which is introduced into the intake manifold after the map sensor. Because of the low current the creator says it takes about 30 days for the unit to begin producing hydrogen efficiently. Several customers that come to my work have them and say it works. But with testimonials like; " I go to the gas station less" & "My car feel more powerful", I get real suspicious.

I know one of the benefits is it burns off all carbon build up, resulting in a better runing engine and of course if you percieve you are getting better mileage, you'll drive that way to see results.

Like others, it uses distilled water to refill and claims that you have to fill it up every other tank. I've seen the kit and it is well made, I am just concerned about the free flowing hydrogen into the intake and the ecu's ability to compensate for fuel.

Take a look at it and let me know. Thanks ...

[cfg83]

trikkonceptz -

I navigated to the Paypal. They want $1200 for it, so I say no. For that $$, you should make your own.

CarloSW2

[trikkonceptz]

Originally Posted by cfg83

trikkonceptz -

I navigated to the Paypal. They want $1200 for it, so I say no. For that $$, you should make your own.

CarloSW2

Believe me its not for me ... my dealership is going to invest in it as a distributor, with an installed price of $1799 We have the demand for it already, I just wanted some fresh eyes to look it over in case there was something I missed. It looks and sound theoretically possible and they have done a butload of research to make sure it generates the proper amount of gas and such.

I just figured if anyone could find flaws in this we could .. LOL

[silverknight]

Hey guys.
I am in the middle of building my own generator but not from any purchased plans. I researched a couple designs and choose one to start off with. I also bought a scanguage to get some data for an A-B-A test of my build. I plan on trying a simple mod to send a slightly higher voltage from the o2 sensor to the ecu to make sure it leans out. Also going to try to retard the timing if needed.

The only way this will work is if the hydroxy gas makes burning gasoline more efficient to make up and exceed the electrical losses in the generator. We will see.

I am waiting for the correct electrolyte, aka, NaOH (sodium hydroxide) or KOH (Potassium hydroxide). These are cheap as well but you either have to order them online or have a soap making supply shop near you.

[cfg83]

trikkonceptz -

Originally Posted by trikkonceptz

Believe me its not for me ... my dealership is going to invest in it as a distributor, with an installed price of $1799 We have the demand for it already, I just wanted some fresh eyes to look it over in case there was something I missed. It looks and sound theoretically possible and they have done a butload of research to make sure it generates the proper amount of gas and such.

I just figured if anyone could find flaws in this we could .. LOL

Ok, that's different. I'll spend more time on the site than just looking at the pri$e.

CarloSW2

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by trikkonceptz

Because of the low current the creator says it takes about 30 days for the unit to begin producing hydrogen efficiently.

My, how convenient - for the con artist, I mean. The 30-day delay for the effects to show up means a lot of gullible marks can be parted from their money, before said con artist needs to skip town with the swag.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Originally Posted by Daox

The need for distilled water is simply to keep the unit clean. As the water is broken down any impurities will remain. Eventually the generator needs to be refilled as it'll run out of water. The impurities continue to build up and will eventually short the generator.

The thing MUST have the salt in there in order to work! Salt IS an impurity, too. And yes, any and all impurities will built up as a crust on the electrodes.

So again, why would one use distilled water -- and then add an impurity? (Which will build up inside the plates.) The only reason I can think of is to try and control the rate of conductance -- though he sure doesn't measure it, like he said in the instructions...

[88CRX]

Originally Posted by cfg83

88CRX -



110% agreement here. For HHO to work, the car must be reconfigured for lean burn. That's one of the reasons it's a PITA to make work. A diesel engine likes to "go-lean" by design, so it is a better ICE for the job.

I have an HHO generator from www.hydrogen-boost.com. just like Daox says, I haven't had any results. However, I have not been willing to implement all the mods required for "the system" to work. This includes MAP and 02 sensor spoofs, and a fuel heater (using waste heat from engine coolant).

If I had to do it all over again, I would seriously *consider* this gizmo :

HydranOx - $400
http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/hydro...x/hydranox.php

The reason I am curious about it is that it *claims* to separate the H2 from the 02. If the gizmo is only sending H2 into the air intake, this would remove the need to modify the 02 sensor, which I like, . But, I wouldn't pump the 02 into the cabin of the car, that's for sure.

I am not saying that the above gizmo is not a scam, I am just saying that it claims to solve an existing deficiency with HHO designs.

CarloSW2

So you have an HHO in your car now. no differences huh... how much did it cost?

I believe that there might be merit, but only certain cars.

It would seem like something free for nothing, but i reality you have to check it often put water, clean etc. so it does not end up free...

[cfg83]

trikkonceptz -

Originally Posted by trikkonceptz

Believe me its not for me ... my dealership is going to invest in it as a distributor, with an installed price of $1799 We have the demand for it already, I just wanted some fresh eyes to look it over in case there was something I missed. It looks and sound theoretically possible and they have done a butload of research to make sure it generates the proper amount of gas and such.

I just figured if anyone could find flaws in this we could .. LOL

I did some more reading but I don't understand parts of it. There is no traditional catalyst, just mineral water :

Gerolsteiner Spring Water - Sparkling
http://www.finewaters.com/Bottled_Wa...rolsteiner.asp

Gerolsteiner Analysis BOTTLED WATER ANALYSIS:
milligrams per liter (mg/l)
2527 	TDS 	
	ph factor 	
347 	Calcium 	
39.7 	Chlorides 	
0.21 	Fluordine 	
1817 	Bicarbonate - See (1) below
108 	Magnesium 	
0.4 	Maganese 	
5.1 	Nitrate 	
10.8 	Potassium 	
40.2 	Silica 	
119 	Sodium 	
2.9 	Stroncium 	
36.3 	Sulphates

After initially charging the system with mineral water, you switch to distilled water. Usually, for the system "to work", I would think they must have a (nasty) catalyst. Because of this my vivid imagination makes me think that they have done something exotic with the interior metal conduction plates (which have to be there), but I have no proof. They are claiming stainless steel, but that doesn't seem enough to me :

(Technology Tab)
http://hydro4000.com/technology.htm

... For example, using iron electrodes in an electrolyte solution will produce iron oxide at the anode, which will react to form iron hydroxide. When producing large quantities of hydrogen, this can significantly contaminate the electrolytic cell reducing its hydrogen output. This is why our HYDRO-4000 is made entirely of stainless steel.

(1) I noticed the Bicarbonate component to the mineral water. For some HHO generators, people have claimed that bicarbonate soda (Arm & Hammer) would work as a catalyst. Others have said this is a bogus catalyst.

I am expecting a "catch can" to catch the H2 and 02 that reforms back into liquid, but it isn't there. Also, If they are adding 02 to the air intake without separating it, they need to modify the 02 sensor to make sure the ECU/PCM doesn't add more fuel.

It just seems too "simple" to me. To appear this simple up front, I think it should have more explanation as to why it is so simple. The "simplicity" could be a selling point where they say "we have this advantage over our competition, blah blah blah yada yada yada ...", but they don't.

Question: When you interact with them in person, do they give you more information than what is on the website? For example, what happens in a typical installation?

CarloSW2

[cfg83]

88CRX -

Originally Posted by 88CRX

So you have an HHO in your car now. no differences huh... how much did it cost?

I believe that there might be merit, but only certain cars.

It would seem like something free for nothing, but i reality you have to check it often put water, clean etc. so it does not end up free...

I spent $500 about 2 years ago on a closeout system before he hiked his prices. It came with a scangauge, so I consider the cost to be about $350. I also did the "typical customer thing" and ignored the installation instructions. He told me time and again to install the *whole* system, but I only installed the hydrogen generator. He wanted me to install an 02 and Map sensor spoof, along with a fuel heater, but I didn't.

This summer I will have an EFIE (02 sensor voltage modifier) in place, and a DC motor controller to limit the Amperage (to control HHO production overrun). Still no fuel heater or Map sensor spoof. We'll see what happens.

It's definitely not for free. There is a lot of care and feeding involved. In his newsletter, he even claimed that it's not very efficient for hypermilers because we are driving small displacement vehicles under very low-load conditions. It's more appropriate for vehicles or stationary engines that are "doing work". We Hypermile because we have a choice on how and what we drive. A diesel engine at a worksite has more narrow load usage conditions. A trucker has to haul X-Amount of weight. He/she can't say "I'll haul the load, but you'll have to take everything out of the boxes in order for me to save weight".

This is all my opinion, YOMV.

CarloSW2

[trikkonceptz]

-cfg83

The setup is very simple ... you tap the intake after the MAP sensor avoiding such problems with air fuel ratios .. the only variable is the ECU leaning back the fuel once it realizes it needs less to combust in the chamber. They claim that the Hydrogen created is browns gas and other than the mineral water to start it, distilled water is all you need to maintain it. They claim there is no cleaning or maintenance involved once you install it.

Their only caution is that you install it below the level of the air intake. Also the unit has a pretty hefty air filter, but otherwise, simplicity it is.

Currently the Palm beach sherrif's office is putting 2 units in their cruisers to see what results they get. With the beating those cars take any positive change will be a good boost for their product.

Mind you they have video dyno tests of thir unit working on a vehicle with and without. They basically moved an established system into this test vehicle to see immeadiate results. The dyno confirmed improvements of 7 miles per gallon I think. They did the run with and empty tank adding 1 gallon of gas each time, once without the unit as baseline and a second time with it for their tests.

Who knows this may actually work, I figured you guys could sniff out a rat if it were to good to be true.

[Formula413]

I think people are saying "MAP" and meaning "MAF"

MAP - Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor
MAF - Mass Air Flow sensor

I was just coming here to post up about the Hydro 4000, but I searched first and found this thread. The idea sounds very appealing, using wasted energy from the alternator to split water and create fuel. I would love to hear any first hand experience anyone has had with it. It really does sound too good to be true.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Formula413

...using wasted energy from the alternator to split water and create fuel.

What wasted energy from the alternator? The alternator only converts the mechanical energy of the engine to electricity, and it only does so when electricity is needed. If you take energy from the alternator to run this hydrogen generator, that will put more load on your engine, and decrease your fuel economy.

[Formula413]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

What wasted energy from the alternator? The alternator only converts the mechanical energy of the engine to electricity, and it only does so when electricity is needed. If you take energy from the alternator to run this hydrogen generator, that will put more load on your engine, and decrease your fuel economy.

But an alternator doesn't shut itself off when the battery is full, it keeps right on spinning. As opposed to say the air conditioner which has a clutch that engages when the A/C is turned on and disengages when the A/C is turned off. Unless there is some huge gap in my understanding of how an alternator works.