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Old 12-16-2012, 10:55 PM   #501 (permalink)
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:09 AM   #502 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gus View Post
Question to the members of this forum. Would one of you please read my posts (yes including the unfortunate duplication) and then tell me where this system does NOT work.

My test was conducted on a straight forward basis........like with like..
I drove to a station appx 1km from freeway entrance (my test was principally to find fuel consumption at highway speed) Fuelling was done very slowly to allow foaming to stop and to within 1" of the top..........the with the HHO system engaged a closed loop was driven returning to the same station and the same pump. Odometer reading and refill in the same manner to within that 1" of the top.......then the HHO system shut down the same run was performed. ........returned to the same station same pump and topped up again. The results were noted in the posting 8,8km per liter w/HHO..........6,2km per liter running diesel only. What else do the "experts" want ? As I mentioned my principal interest was to limit the emissions....that already made me happy. The rest is bonus
Wow, I think this is the first time I've ever read of someone actually carefully testing one of these things and having it actually work!! On a diesel, no less! I didn't even know they could work on diesels at all.

And this is the type of electrolysis hydrogen generator that runs off the car's electrical system, right? And then dumps both the hydrogen and oxygen produced into the engine to burn?

Just curious; how far (long) was your test loop, and/or how many gallons were being used each time? And, did you test it repeatedly, or just the one time? In other words, were the 8.8 and 6.2 figures an average of several runs, or a single "before & after" test?
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:15 AM   #503 (permalink)
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You need to understand that you won't satisfy some on this forum who get their "kicks" from dumping on things like HHO. A 40% mpg gain is nothing to sneeze at.

I wondering if you would describe your system? Number of plates and how you manage to vary the amps used. How does it deal with Canadian winters?



Quote:
Originally Posted by gus View Post
Question to the members of this forum. Would one of you please read my posts (yes including the unfortunate duplication) and then tell me where this system does NOT work.

My test was conducted on a straight forward basis........like with like..
I drove to a station appx 1km from freeway entrance (my test was principally to find fuel consumption at highway speed) Fuelling was done very slowly to allow foaming to stop and to within 1" of the top..........the with the HHO system engaged a closed loop was driven returning to the same station and the same pump. Odometer reading and refill in the same manner to within that 1" of the top.......then the HHO system shut down the same run was performed. ........returned to the same station same pump and topped up again. The results were noted in the posting 8,8km per liter w/HHO..........6,2km per liter running diesel only. What else do the "experts" want ? As I mentioned my principal interest was to limit the emissions....that already made me happy. The rest is bonus
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:54 AM   #504 (permalink)
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@gus
Sense you asked what else people would want.
Your presented data is incomplete, as is.

#1> What was your average speed for each course loop trip?

#2> Please confirm I read your post correctly about the distance of the loop course ... are you claiming your loop course is 1km?

#3> What was your engine temperature ( average , start, finish ) of each test run?

#4> How did you record / determine the numbers you are reporting?
km / L of fuel?
various amp rates?
various RPMs?
Change in toque?
Distance?
And the other ones I find missing: Average speed, Temperature?

- - - - - - -

Each one of these things has a significant potential to effect the results.

That is what I would want ( sense you asked ) ... weather you want to provide it or not is up to you.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:48 PM   #505 (permalink)
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My reply will likely be several posts in order to cover most of question/comments.
The unit is contained in a box and is fixed with quick connections to be able to be moved if required.
The cell, split into 2 halves, consists of 1+ 4 neutral 1-..1+ 4 neutral 1- Appx 5"x 6" encased to prevent anything contacting the metal plates and cause a short or?
5 qt reservoir plus filtration unit w/5 micron water filter element (walmart) there is a tiny circulating pump which is in full time operation also helps with the cooling. Distilled water/ Sodium Hydroxide. Digital amp meter. PWM. Electronic control unit to enable half of the cell to be triggered by throttle control. (foot off the gas HHo off) The other half of the unit comes on when engine fires and remains on until shut down or manually switched off. On the dash there is a switch for each of the halves to manually control. In addition there is a relay indicator light as relays have been known to fail.
The gas is routed through a bubbler (regular tap water plus some methyl hydrate to prevent freezing. (the other is fine in our winters)
At idle we need 10amps appx. at 2800rpm's (100km/h appx) we need a combined 30amps.
My alternator (stock 70amps) is not putting out enough causing a gradual discharging of the battery. I will actually have a 120amp alternator installed tomorrow. The van is a Japan domestic unit therefore nothing stock is available.
We believe that the system as designed for this engine cannot produce any better results without getting into injection pump mods. and of course much more output of HHO. The improvements are basically just burning the fuel completely which formerly went out of the exhaust pipe. (or in gas engines through the cat to be burned off)
There are, by the way, other safety features besides the bubbler. We have a flash back arrester just before the gas enters the air filter.Another one way valve designed to allow any gas in the line to drain in case of a shutdown.
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:16 PM   #506 (permalink)
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Answering JWJINMAN.......Yes indeed Diesels are in fact easier to adapt to as the rapid burn of the HHO gas actually makes the engine run cooler. I must say though, the new diesels are running in much the same manner as gas engines and will require all sorts of tweaking to fool the computers. Maybe you have noticed how popular the old Mercedes Mod. 123 diesels are. Nothing but the turbo to deal with. The engine in this Japanese van being from 1991 is also very simple. I mentioned in my earlier post that I wanted primarily to push less crap into the atmosphere and that I have achieved massively.
As far as the test, I was interested in finding out how well the system works on highway driving. That particular run was only about 48km. I have tried several other times to achieve a test over 300 plus km, sadly each time something interfered.
We seem to have all the bugs out of the system now and tomorrow I will have a much larger capacity alternator installed and after that I will make another run.
I would never claim anything other than what I said I fuelled. One must not forget that distilled water is not free, nor is the filter, but that is getting into costs etc
I only reported what we found the day the runs were done.
Next year when my plate renewal comes up I will have the official emissions test done by the Govt of B.C. The comparisons with the prev. 6 years will be intersting
Hope that answers some of your questions
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:52 PM   #507 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gus View Post
Answering JWJINMAN.......Yes indeed Diesels are in fact easier to adapt to as the rapid burn of the HHO gas actually makes the engine run cooler. I must say though, the new diesels are running in much the same manner as gas engines and will require all sorts of tweaking to fool the computers. Maybe you have noticed how popular the old Mercedes Mod. 123 diesels are. Nothing but the turbo to deal with. The engine in this Japanese van being from 1991 is also very simple. I mentioned in my earlier post that I wanted primarily to push less crap into the atmosphere and that I have achieved massively.
As far as the test, I was interested in finding out how well the system works on highway driving. That particular run was only about 48km. I have tried several other times to achieve a test over 300 plus km, sadly each time something interfered.
We seem to have all the bugs out of the system now and tomorrow I will have a much larger capacity alternator installed and after that I will make another run.
I would never claim anything other than what I said I fuelled. One must not forget that distilled water is not free, nor is the filter, but that is getting into costs etc
I only reported what we found the day the runs were done.
Next year when my plate renewal comes up I will have the official emissions test done by the Govt of B.C. The comparisons with the prev. 6 years will be intersting
Hope that answers some of your questions
It seems like those who claim the greatest benefits are those driving ancient tech diesels. My experience from working for Mercedes in the early 1980s was when the 240-300 D & TD models got close to 100k miles (not kilometers) you found the break off pressures of the injectors had dropped off by about 15-20%. Installing rebuilt injectors brought the pressures back to specs and we found later that simply replacing the spring in the injector did the same thing, Never got to try shimming the spring, or going beyond the high side of the spec for a new injector (or rebuilt) at 1800 PSI. The complaint about black exhaust was almost always due to lower injector breakoff pressures. It may be that your HHO setup compensated for the same issues that were fairly universal among old tech diesels and you reference to newer diesels not responding to the HHO injection reflects the change in technology to dramatically reduce emissions. Not sure about Canada, but the recent change in US specs for diesel fuel which virtually eliminated the sulfer content of the new fuel blends also greatly reduced the visible smoke emissions.

I would suspect that your improvement may be due in a large part (possibly completely) to the break off pressures of your old tech mechanical injectors being significantly below spec, something which would be addressed by a thorough diesel tune up with each injector break off pressure and flow pattern being checked outside the engine.

regards
Mech
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:00 PM   #508 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suspectnumber961 View Post
You need to understand that you won't satisfy some on this forum who get their "kicks" from dumping on things like HHO. A 40% mpg gain is nothing to sneeze at.

I wondering if you would describe your system? Number of plates and how you manage to vary the amps used. How does it deal with Canadian winters?
I get no "kicks" out of rejecting HHO as a potential mileage enhancement. Quite the contrary, I wanted to buy a system and actually rode around with two gents for 6 hours one day, giving them help with roads and routes and watching their system in operation.
Coincidentally, after some time they told me about their greatest hurdle, which was the Commonwealth of Virginia requiring them to have each vehicle tested to insure it did not violate the emissions requirements it had to pass when new. They told me the testing was very expensive, SO THEY WERE JUST DEALING WITH OLD DIESELS WHICH DID NOT HAVE TO PASS EMISSIONS TESTS.
There were some of their customers who told me personally about some significant mileage increases, but under careful scruitny, I found the same old story of poorly maintained vehicles that probably could have much benefited from some simple maintenance and a proper diesel tune up.
Why you think you should be in a knowledge position to ever assume anything about how I research anything myself, is beyond incredulous.

regards
Mech
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:26 PM   #509 (permalink)
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Reply To IAMIAN ....... I will try to answer your questions as best possible as my friend who took notes is in San Diego CA for the winter.
I believe the loop was 48km. Speed posted on that stretch of freeway 100km/h I find that i drive best using rpm's. 2800 being the best for this engine, which interprets to appx 98/100km/h. I hope you don't expect me to tell you that I ran the distance locked onto that speed. I was lucky being mid morning on a sunday that we were able to get two runs in without a tie up. for me to get a "relatively" speedy run over longer distances I would have to head across the US border towards Seattle and then perhaps there will be a stretch with light traffic.
Temp: My gauge only reads operating temp or lower.
You will note that I made no claims, as so many do, "my car/truck did this or that before". I don't make any claims now, other than the findings we reported.
The internet is full of claims of huge fuel savings. Generally speaking it just is not possible to get more power out than the unburned portion of the fuel without redesigning the whole injection system while at the same time producing hugely more HHO. That then creates the problem of Amps, where do you get them from. So, yes these systems work primarily to produce less emissions and in so doing save some fuel by burning what normally would exit via the exhaust pipe. Provided the system is designed to work with the engine it is attached to. We will try to get another test in the near future. For my own information we will do it in the same manner as it is not possible without masses of testing equipment to do any better. My intent was to show my test results. There are enough people with funny hats or mustaches on the internet claiming this or that. I got ticked off when someone says "does not/cannot work" I made no claims other than what I experienced after installing this system
Governments are quiet about it because on the one hand they want to see less emissions but don't like to see the tax revenues diminish. (read somewhere that the city of Seattle is thinking to tax electric vehicles to make up shortfall )
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:57 AM   #510 (permalink)
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Thanks Gus,

I really appreciate your honesty and straightforwardness - freely saying what you did and didn't do, what you found and didn't find..... And I've also found OldMechanic to be very matter-of-fact and straightforward, too. Not owning a diesel, I don't know if any of this will ever apply to me personally, but it's still interesting to learn about it from someone who's actually doing it - and who doesn't appear to be a "nut".

I see where getting a good, steady, long-range driving test would be difficult for you, but that's what would be ideal to really get a good mileage comparison - the "A-B-A" testing that MetroMPG describes so well. I can't help but wonder if the extra load the heavier alternator will put on the engine would negate the mileage gains.

But then, you said your primary goal was cleaning up the exhaust, and it sounds like you're seeing encouraging results there. So I sure hope to hear more information about your project whenever you get some.

Thanks,
Bill

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