Hydrogen Generator Experiment

[willy57]

This site is very informative. Thanks to all who post. I know most posts are much more complex but I found this simple fun experiment I wanted to share. http://www.howvids.com/Automotive/15..._Generator.ad2
Have fun. Looking forward to future posts.

[AndrewJ]

What exactly are you planning on doing with a hydrogen/oxygen bubbler?

Please note in the video that the battery charger that's running the bubbler is putting out 100 amps at 12 volts.

That's 1200 watts of output, with 50% charger efficiency that's 1800 watts at the outlet. "Cracking" hydrogen and oxygen gas from water is a VERY energy intensive process.
Not worth it IMO.

[blackjackel]

why not just use the engines heat to generate water vapor to go in with the air intake.... same thing, and it would allow the combustion crack it

[Joseph Davis]

Originally Posted by blackjackel

why not just use the engines heat to generate water vapor to go in with the air intake.... same thing, and it would allow the combustion crack it

When combustion temps become high enough to seperate water into it's component hydrogen and oxygen it is called detonation. At the temps that shear water molecules it's too hot for H and O to recombine into water, so they seek out the next best thing: aluminum or steel in the combustion chamber. Not good.

For every pound worth of gasoline injected into an ICE there is approximately two pounds of water formed in the combustion reaction, which as wet steam is the primary motive force that pushes against the pistons. Kinda interesting that a gasoline engine is also an open cycle steam engine, eh?

[88CRX]

Any luck with this. A coworker metioned it to me acouple of months ago.

It seems like it won't work because it takes more energy to seperate the water molecule, than what you get out, when recombined.

But thier are so many people out there that swear to it. Even the cheap eBay bottle sellers get good reviews from the purchaser.

There must be something else going on here. Maybe small amoumts of hydrogen and oxygen added to the air/fuel mixture changes the burning characteristics???

Has anyone in this forum actually tried and got positive, no, or negative results?

[88CRX]

Okay i'm at home wondering about this, i found an articale in wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_Fuel_Injection

There might be merit to HHO, but not as the way they advertise... 50% is probably based on higher concentrations of Hydrogen, than what HHO generators can produce. But that small about might still give an improvement.

This part got my attention:

Automotive fuel enhancement systems work by injecting a hydrogen rich mixture, or pure hydrogen into the intake manifold of an internal combustion engine combined with air/fuel ratio, and timing modification. A small amount of hydrogen added to the intake air-fuel charge permits the engine to operate with leaner air-to-fuel mixture than otherwise possible.[3] As the air/fuel mix approaches 30:1 the temperature of combustion substantially decreases effectively mitigating NOx production.[3]

Under idle conditions power is only required for extraneous components other than the drive train, therefore fuel consumption can be minimized. A 50% reduction in gasoline consumption, at idle, was reported by numerically analyzing "the effect of hydrogen enriched gasoline on the performance, emissions and fuel consumption of a small spark-ignition engine".[4]

Under most loads near stoichiometric air/fuel mixtures are still required for normal acceleration, although under idle conditions, reduced loads, and moderate acceleration Hydrogen "addition" in combination with lean burn engine conditions "can guarantee a regular running" of the engine "with many advantages in terms of emissions levels and fuel consumption".[5]

Increases "in engine efficiency are more dominant than the energy loss incurred in generating hydrogen".[3] This is specifically with regard to use of a hydrogen reformer. Overall computational analysis "has marked the possibility of operating with high air overabundance (lean or ultra-lean mixtures) without a" substantial "performance decrease, but with great advantages on pollution emissions and fuel consumption".[4]

Overall comparing "the properties of hydrogen and gasoline, it is possible to underline the possibilities, for hydrogen fueled engines, of operating with very lean (or ultra-lean) mixtures,[6] obtaining interesting fuel economy and emissions reductions".[5] The "concept of hydrogen enriched gasoline, as a fuel for internal combustion engines, has a greater interest than pure hydrogen powered engines because it involves fewer modifications to the engines and their fueling systems".[5]

[edit] Engine Control

ECU or carburetor modifications are required to establish lean or ultra lean burn engine conditions; where the hydrogen permits leaner conditions than possible with solely hydrocarbon fuel.[7][3]

[88CRX]

I wish i can read the rest of this:

Performance and Fuel Consumption Estimation of a Hydrogen Enriched Gasoline Engine At Part-Load Operation

here: http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2002-01-2196

[88CRX]

here is another one:

Lean-burn characteristics of a gasoline engine enriched with hydrogen from a plasmatron fuel reformer

here: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16124816

[88CRX]

There is a bunch more.

Just search google: hydrogen enriched gasoline engine.

has anyone tried this, and taken before and after measurement?

[Daox]

I've heard of a lot of people try it, but none have gotten good results from it. However, hydrogen has been proven to improve a gasoline engine's efficiency. The problem with many kits IMO is none of them allow you to retune the engine to account for the changes in combustion characteristics.

[88CRX]

I was wondering the same thing the ECU or Carb must be adjusted to burn leaner, because the Air/HydroCarbon Fuel/Hydrogen burns more efficiently.

They sell HHO Map sensor adjustment devices like this:
eBay Controller

I Think the more expensive probably have them included.

What's weird is they all seem to miss the mark as to why they save gas. they are not running off Hydrogen, the hydrogen enhances the Hydrocarbon Fuel/Air Combustion.

Originally Posted by Daox

I've heard of a lot of people try it, but none have gotten good results from it. However, hydrogen has been proven to improve a gasoline engine's efficiency. The problem with many kits IMO is none of them allow you to retune the engine to account for the changes in combustion characteristics.

[Daox]

Two potentiometers on the map sensor are not going to to squat for altering fueling maps. You need a much better system and a way of altering closed loop maps. Probably more important than fuel is that you need alter ignition timing... The whole thing really isn't that simple and I think thats why the DIYers get tripped up.

FYI, I've never built anything myself. I've just read about it.

[88CRX]

yeah i'm not sure about the potentiometers either.

I'm not planing on building anything either, I just think when people say that it doesn't work (like me, because you put in more energy, than what you get out), should rethink about it because of results people have.

All those satified customers can't be wrong. (maybe there ECU's recognized that timing A/F mixture can adjusted). I know Honda's do that, when higher octane fuel is used. I'm guessing the H/F/A mixture behaves like higher octane fuel. So that's why some people get good results, some don't.

I decided to look more into it and i realized the advertisements were misleading. benefits are from a changes in combustion properties, not actually using the hydrogen as a fuel...

[88CRX]

I seem like these diesel guys are getting great increases:

Magdrive HHO test results

More results

[Bigs]

I have been researching on this a lot. The reason is a local guy wants to get a grant to start his business and his primary product is HHO Kits. I have emailed him with questions and hasn't replied. Though, he has replied to my brother.

Now, my research has founf that people are installing these on OLD rundown cars. I haven't see 1 video with a new car. Of course the MAP/MAF and o2 sensors will act funny. Water vapours, will it screw up your engine and exhaust system? I'm sending this guy an email concerning this to see his replies. I'll keep you posted!

[88CRX]

Although there may be some merit... i just saw a video of a canister blow up!

Be careful if you do try it.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

The basic principle of this sort of device is impossible -- it is a perpetual motion machine (if it were true!) and therefore it is bunk.

I think the OP is a Spammer...

[Daox]

Niel, please read up on how the system works before making assumptions. The hydrogen is not primarily used as a fuel and is therefore not a perpetual motion machine. What happens is the hydrogen changes the combustion characteristics. More specifically it increases flame speed which increases the efficiency of the engine. This has been proven.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Okay, I stand corrected. But, I do know that making hydrogen through electrolysis is pretty inefficient, and depending on how much hydrogen is needed to have the desired effect -- is there a net gain of energy? IOW, does this scheme increase the overall efficiency of the engine?

[Edit: I watched the video the OP linked to, and it shows how to make hydrogen -- but how would one connect this in a controllable manner to ones vehicle? I use steam humidifiers that run on a very similar principle (They use carbon rods as electrodes) -- I'm puzzled by the need for distilled water which they then add salt to? The salt conducts electricity through the water (pure water is actually an insulator!), so it would also work fine to just use tap water. Of course, the mineral and chlorine content are going to vary...

What happens to the oxygen?

Lastly, if the device draws anywhere near 100 amps (that would be 1200watts!), this would severely load your alternator, and therefore the added load is greater than the energy released into the hydrogen -- so the gains of efficiency in combustion would have to be pretty large.]

[Daox]

You would be correct there. However, the ICE is also horribly inefficient, so there is tons of room to improve. According to many sources the necessary amount of hydrogen is not much. But what is not much? Like I mentioned above, I have not tried it myself and I have not seen any proof that it absolutely does work. Hydrogen does improve efficiency. But, I have yet to see it proven that a HHO generator can be run efficiently enough to overcome its power requirements. Do I think it can be done? Yes, I do. I have heard of guys who know a LOT more than me about engine building say it works.

I also recently got this link.
http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1716/69/