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Old 12-06-2017, 01:38 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Definitely with you here, but with some caveats. It's not nearly so prevalent today, but historically there are plenty of examples of groups unfairly discriminated against so widely that there really wasn't any alternative open to them, in terms of businesses to patronize.
Racist and sexist laws existed because there was a lot of racist and sexist people with power. Women and black people didn't get the law changed by overpowering the government. The law changed because the majority could no longer "hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" and also believe that slave ownership and denial of women's voting rights are ok. Both beliefs could not simultaneously be correct, so one of them had to go.

My point is that it isn't good laws that result in a good society, rather it's a good society that results in good laws.

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How do you feel about, for instance, a black or latino family looking to buy a house and having real estate agents (who may live in these neighborhoors and have a vested interest) turning them out to keep the neighborhoods from having minorities? Not even discussing private sales, or agency policies. Granted, it may not be advisable to move into one of those neighborhoods to begin with, but this is relatively common. There are only so many agents that can represent one house.
Well I'm against that behavior, and I'd spread the word if I knew of agents who acted this way. Technology has made this practice less possible because the customer can see a list of houses on the internet and visit the houses for sale. At 6% commission, real estate agents are a dying profession.

Also, I suspect the reverse is more common, that a Korean gets a Korean real estate agent, and asks where the good Korean neighborhoods are. I'm all for the right of the Korean to pursue a neighborhood they feel most comfortable in.

Finally, people tend to live in the neighborhoods they can afford. OJ lived in a "white" community because that's where he felt comfortable, and he could afford it.

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Funny that we tend to see a lot of the former in most "bargaining" type transactions. Women, statistically, pay more for cars off dealer lots, because they're targeted and profiled. This is a voluntary transaction on both sides, but even if it's not an institutional problem, it's definitely systematic and good luck finding a dealer that isn't doing this.
Women are the kinder gender. They seek harmony more often and have more humility. Men are competitive, seek to win, and are less compassionate. The obvious result is that women tend to avoid conflict, and men are more likely to engage in conflict. Bargaining is the process of conflict resolution. Exceptions to these generalities exist, and that's why women who are competitive, confrontational, and aggressive are seen by some as "b*tches". There are men who avoid conflict, are not driven to win, and are kinder who are seen by some as "pansies".

My wife avoids answering the door because she gives into the pressure of salesmen. She gave $20 to someone at the door because it was worth $20 to her to avoid the conflict. I talked with a guy for 15 minutes and at the end, didn't buy his $40 citrus cleaner and he stormed off angry.

To be clear, there are many instances where my willingness to engage in conflict was much worse than accommodating someone. There is a healthy balance of standing your ground, and compassionately accommodating others. My wife brings this balance to my life, and I keep her from being taken advantage of.

I agree that cars should be priced like computers; the price is as listed, and doesn't vary person to person. Laws protecting the dealership model should not exist.

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Old 12-06-2017, 02:03 PM   #142 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
Native Americans are among the most abused group of US citizens. First their land was taken from them, then their self-sufficient culture was replaced with a welfare culture.
Well, that's one way of looking at it. OTOH, my non-Indian ancestors probably didn't have land to begin with. While I'm not at all into genealogy, I suspect (from evidence of names &c) that some of them were Irish starved out of their homeland in the 1800s, others might have been Germans escaping landless poverty, if not military enslavement, still others English or French escaping religious persecution. Other folks' ancestors might include Eastern European Jews escaping pogroms, and later Hitler. There weren't really a lot of wealthy, secure European people interested in emigrating to the American wilderness.
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:12 PM   #143 (permalink)
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Even if you account for women on average knowing less about cars, there's still a difference in what they get at a dealership.
It's not what they get at a dealership, it's what they're willing to take. The customer always has the upper hand: they can simply walk away and not buy the car or whatever if they aren't willing to pay the price the seller asks.

I don't think it's really so much a matter of knowing about cars, as it is a willingness to haggle over price. I'm in the no haggling group, so I probably have paid a bit more for stuff over the years, but the avoidance of aggravation was worth it.
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:25 PM   #144 (permalink)
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I probably have paid a bit more for stuff over the years, but the avoidance of aggravation was worth it.
In some cases it's also just getting what you want. I think I overpaid for my Civic a little bit, but bodystyle aside it's spec'd out more or less how I'd have wanted it, and was both clean and unmolested. So I'm not really that concerned about paying the extra, oh, 10% or so.
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:25 PM   #145 (permalink)
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Well, that's one way of looking at it. OTOH, my non-Indian ancestors probably didn't have land to begin with. While I'm not at all into genealogy, I suspect (from evidence of names &c) that some of them were Irish starved out of their homeland in the 1800s, others might have been Germans escaping landless poverty, if not military enslavement, still others English or French escaping religious persecution. Other folks' ancestors might include Eastern European Jews escaping pogroms, and later Hitler. There weren't really a lot of wealthy, secure European people interested in emigrating to the American wilderness.

Wealth is relative. Perhaps most Europeans moving to North America were poor compared to other Europeans, but they were rich compared to the natives. They at least had Guns, Germs, and Steel.

Welfare programs might be necessary in the short term, but there must be a plan to wean off of them in the long term. In the long term, welfare is harmful to both the giver and the receiver.
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:36 PM   #146 (permalink)
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Women are the kinder gender. They seek harmony more often and have more humility. Men are competitive, seek to win, and are less compassionate.
That right there is why I don't fit into this world. I'd like to get along, but I can't trust the opposite gender to not whisper poisonous thoughts into my ear late in the night.

Quote:
It's not what they get at a dealership, it's what they're willing to take. The customer always has the upper hand: they can simply walk away and not buy the car or whatever if they aren't willing to pay the price the seller asks... I'm in the no haggling group, so I probably have paid a bit more for stuff over the years, but the avoidance of aggravation was worth it.
I don't buy if I can't meet the asking price. Not sure if it's out of pride or showing respect.

I don't like selling. When I sold the green Superbeetle, I asked US$3000* and dropped the price $1-200 a month until I got to $1500. A guy drove it and then asked me if I could come down any on the price.


*mid-book — it had suspension upgrades and started in 1/4 revolution (it fired on the very first cylinder)
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Old 12-06-2017, 03:13 PM   #147 (permalink)
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That right there is why I don't fit into this world. I'd like to get along, but I can't trust the opposite gender to not whisper poisonous thoughts into my ear late in the night.
Believe me, my wife has no hesitation being confrontational with me.

The best relationships are those in which the goals, values, happiness and well-being of both parties are held in equal regard. It helps when those goals and values are similar.

Quote:
I don't buy if I can't meet the asking price. Not sure if it's out of pride or showing respect.

I don't like selling. When I sold the green Superbeetle, I asked US$3000* and dropped the price $1-200 a month until I got to $1500. A guy drove it and then asked me if I could come down any on the price.


*mid-book — it had suspension upgrades and started in 1/4 revolution (it fired on the very first cylinder)
I respect the pride you have in meeting the asking price.

My nature is to avoid spending money, and that includes paying as little as possible when I finally do make a purchase. I take pride in knowing I paid less than most would have.

When I went to look at my Acura, the dealer initial asking price was $22k. I laughed and said that was absurd, and he asked what a reasonable price was. I said it was only worth $17k. He came down to $17,400 fairly quickly, but ultimately I still walked out. I had only come to see the vehicle, and hadn't fully researched what it was worth. 2 weeks later, the dealer agreed to my $17k price. Perhaps the extra wait and hassle of making a 2nd trip wasn't worth $400, but I took pride in having made no concessions on my price. It was certainly worth the miniscule effort it took to save $5k on the asking price.

When selling something, I usually list it a little under the market value to avoid wasting time haggling, and to have more options available for potential customers. When I sold a 2007 Subaru Outback, the buyer didn't attempt to haggle on the price at all because I had priced it very fairly to begin with. My rooms for rent in the house always get a strong response because I don't ask maximum price. It allows me to select good roommates from a large pool of people instead of being forced to accept the 1 person who is barely (un)able to make the high rent I'm asking.
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Old 12-06-2017, 05:27 PM   #148 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
Wealth is relative. Perhaps most Europeans moving to North America were poor compared to other Europeans, but they were rich compared to the natives. They at least had Guns, Germs, and Steel.
Kids have so many of the second one, do they need the first and third?

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Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
The best relationships are those in which the goals, values, happiness and well-being of both parties are held in equal regard. It helps when those goals and values are similar.
I wonder what that is like.

If women pay more for cars than men, but feel they paid a good price, what is the situation? When I complain about Warren Buffett saying the rich should pay more taxes, but point out that Berkshire Hathaway perpetually owes billions in back taxes, people always respond that he is just doing his job.

Is the salesman a bad guy for just doing his job? Only if he sells used cars?
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:05 PM   #149 (permalink)
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I wonder what that is like.
I can’t do the real thing
I hurt all my feelings
You gotta keep it kind
You make it a mean while
What a shameful way to be the same
But I need you to be
Better than me
And you need me to do
Better than you

I disarm you in the morning
I was up in arms all night
And now it counts
I am too, too sleepy to fight
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Old 12-07-2017, 01:14 PM   #150 (permalink)
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Any good source for an example of a recent case of institutionalized -ism?

Telling me to open my eyes isn't a convincing argument if I'm saying that my eyes are open, and I don't see it. When presented with compelling evidence, I'm very quick to accept it.
Completely unofficial, institutionalized at one random local level.
Here's my anecdotal bit about law enforcement and white privilege. The first time I got pulled over I was 17 and it never occurred to me to worry about anything. He let me go with a warning for 72 in a 40 (another half mile and it would have been a 35) because he gave all the local kids one freebie. Five years later the FBI was investigating the town because his program for the town to stop cars that didn't seem to have any business in town just coincidentally stopped mainly people with dark skin passing through on the state highway.

Uncodified, but definitely institutionalized.
Keystone XL: We can't have it cross the river just upstream of Bismark, so we'll move it to cross just upstream of the Indians' land. And we're not the racists here, the Corps of Engineers threw out the Bismark crossing way early in the process, before we even officially proposed it!
Why a Previously Proposed Route for the Dakota Access Pipeline Was Rejected - ABC News
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A previously proposed route for the 1,172-mile pipeline had it crossing the Missouri River north of Bismarck, North Dakota, according to a document filed as part of the permitting process. The eventual route that was decided on, and is currently in construction, moved the water crossing of the crude oil pipeline south of the North Dakota capital, to just upstream of the Standing Rock Sioux tribe's reservation.

“This pipeline was rerouted towards our tribal nations when other citizens of North Dakota rightfully rejected it in the interests of protecting their communities and water. We seek the same consideration as those citizens," Dave Archambault II, chairman of the Standing Rock Sioux tribe, said in a statement.

The North Dakota Public Service Commission (PSC) refuted allegations of environmental racism, saying that the Bismarck route proposal was never submitted to the agency because permits for it were denied by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers during its environmental assessment.

“The river crossing north of Bismarck was a proposed alternative considered by the [Dakota Access] company early in the routing process. This route was never included in the proposed route submitted to the PSC and therefore was never vetted or considered by us during our permitting process. It had been eliminated by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers during their environmental assessment," North Dakota Public Service Commission Chair Julie Fedorchak said in statement on Oct. 27.
/Quote

Codified, but not called racism outright by the folks doing it.
North Carolina gerrymandering: We packed blacks into these convoluted districts because we wanted to help them.
Redistricting: Supreme Court upholds ruling striking down NC districts | Charlotte Observer
U.S. Supreme Court agrees NC lawmakers created illegal congressional district maps in 2011

Codified, just not widely advertized.
Redlining. For when you're too racist to allow a racist policy to be informal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining#History
Quote:
Although informal discrimination and segregation had existed in the United States, the specific practice called "redlining" began with the National Housing Act of 1934, which established the Federal Housing Administration (FHA).

NPA and its affiliates achieved disclosure of lending practices with the passage of The Home Mortgage Disclosure Act of 1975. The required transparency and review of loan practices began to change lending practices.
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Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
So far, all I have to be outraged by is that some groups of people who are generations removed from injustice are being told they need increasing amounts of "help" at the expense of other groups of people who had nothing to do with the injustice. It isn't helpful to those being told they can't make it without government assistance, and it isn't helpful to the economic contributors to society.
Generations removed? The past isn't dead. It isn't even past.

We're all products of past generations. A couple people in my extended family over the years have been (what I would call) rich. What the rest of us had was stability and the resulting prosperity- what everyone else would call rich. Going to college, getting a good job, owning a house and having a stable family life were always assumed. Not in a snobby way like our family was better than other people, but assumed in the way you assume the sun will come up in the east tomorrow- it just happens. I grew up travelling to visit extended family and being taken places by my parents, grandparents, grand aunts and uncles.

Society placed me on cruise control for a good life. I've got problems and struggles, but I own a house and have money in the bank. My kids are always doing sports and we just realized a couple months ago that they're a couple trips away from having been to all the 48 states. I've had to work hard, but I didn't have to strive for anything. I didn't overcome poverty, crime, drugs, nonexistent family or an antagonistic government. I had nothing but support, and none of it was grudging. No one who helped me along had the attitude that I wasn't deserving of it or was somehow not a good person for getting help.

Nothing special, unless the government and society was actively working against your family over generations. Then it looks like a fairy tale. Sometimes the absence of discrimination is the biggest help you can get, but it's hard to see and gets multiplied by generations.

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