More natural gas vehicles in the future?

[SVOboy]

After hearing about demand being almost doubled for the Honda Civic GX, I was surprised to come across this bit of news on GCC:

Mercedes-Benz is putting its Sprinter 316 /516 NGT natural gas van into series production, with market launch targeted for May 2008. The company began showing prototypes of the Sprinter NGT at vehicle shows last year. (Earlier post.)

Although Daimler has offered a natural gas version of the Sprinter since 1997, this is the first time the company has built a compressed natural gas version of the Sprinter from first principles. In the past, the NGT Sprinters have used a conversion from a gasoline engine—the M 111 E 23.

The engine on the Sprinter NGT is also applied in Mercedes-Benz passenger cars. Mercedes-Benz uses a bivalent system—the basic engine, a four-cylinder unit with a displacement of 1.8 liters, will also run on gasoline, extending the range of the Sprinter up to 1,200 kilometers (746 miles).

I just spent 16 hours in one of these vans, just wish I had had the option of calculating the mileage for it, . Definitely good rides though.

[H4MM3R]

I do hope so. There is a good market for them. Even with limited refueling stations. The Honda Civic GX has a home refueling station which helps.

[cfg83]

SVOboy -

I heard from someone "in the know" that NG is the big wave of the future too, but I am skeptical. Here in SoCal it is easy because we already have a decent NG infrastructure. But, I can't see that there is enough to go around. As one component in a multi-pronged solution, I could imagine this becoming maybe 5-10% of the cars being driven.

I like the bi-fuel option on the Benz. That's a good idea.

CarloSW2

[RH77]

The Sprinter has been a great alternative to the Econoline and Full-Sized GM Vans (Express). I'm hoping the new (to the U.S., in 2010) Ford Transit Connect will be a hit too...

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Wonder what their cents/mile is, what with natural gas at record high prices too.

Good question. Since it involves considerably less refining, it should be cheaper. The savings really comes from the long-life and durability of the high-compression engines. This is an old study from 1999, but it shows NGVs to be ~25% more efficient. If you take the price of gasoline and Natural Gas from this examination, and extrapolate it to today's figures, it should remain constant.

Originally Posted by H4MM3R

I do hope so. There is a good market for them. Even with limited refueling stations. The Honda Civic GX has a home refueling station which helps.

I've wanted a Phill System and a GX for a while now. It would need to be an early 1.6L with a swapped manual gearbox But the only one's I can find are beat-up city or Airport fleet vehicles. Might be worth a shot -- but the Phill isn't approved in my State (yet )

RH77

[tjts1]

The problem with bi fuel systems is that the engine becomes extremely in efficient when running on natural gas. Natural gas has much high octane, lower energy content and takes up move intake volume than gasoline. A pure natural gas engine like the one found on the Civic GX runs much higher compression and completely different engine tuning compared to the gas engine.
The US has much more natural gas than than oil. There are massive deposits in the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic coast of Florida. Natural gas could replace oil if we had the economy incentives.

[H4MM3R]

Originally Posted by tjts1

The problem with bi fuel systems is that the engine becomes extremely in efficient when running on natural gas. Natural gas has much high octane, lower energy content and takes up move intake volume than gasoline. A pure natural gas engine like the one found on the Civic GX runs much higher compression and completely different engine tuning compared to the gas engine.
The US has much more natural gas than than oil. There are massive deposits in the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic coast of Florida. Natural gas could replace oil if we had the economy incentives.

What blows my mind is when they burn off Natural Gas to get at the Oil.

[H4MM3R]

tjts1~ Natural Gas Utility Companies, would be another place to look, too.

[tjts1]

Gasoline civic engine
Engine Type In-Line 4-Cylinder
Engine Block/Cylinder Head Aluminum-Alloy
Displacement (cc) 1799
Horsepower @ rpm 140 @ 6300
Torque (lb.-ft. @ rpm) 128 @ 4300
Redline (rpm) 6800
Bore and Stroke (mm) 81 x 87.3
Compression Ratio 10.5:1
Valve Train 16-Valve SOHC i-VTEC®

Natural gas civic engine
Engine Type In-Line 4-Cylinder
Engine Block/Cylinder Head Aluminum-Alloy
Displacement (cc) 1799
Horsepower @ rpm (SAE net) 113 @ 6300
Torque (lb.-ft. @ rpm) 109 @ 4300
Bore and Stroke (mm) 81 x 87.3
Compression Ratio 12.5:1
Valve Train 16-Valve SOHC i-VTEC®

[LostCause]

Originally Posted by tjts1

The problem with bi fuel systems is that the engine becomes extremely in efficient when running on natural gas.

That could probably be solved with a little effort, though. Two different fuel maps and a turbocharger or variable valve timing would probably go long ways. I'd like to do a quad-fuel conversion (NG, ethanol, methanol, gasoline) to cover all the bases. Can never be too prepared...

The US has much more natural gas than than oil. There are massive deposits in the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic coast of Florida. Natural gas could replace oil if we had the economy incentives.

Wyoming has a ton too. Open land there is being pockmarked by thousands of wells. I guess it might be a good short term solution, but it'll only buy time.

- LostCause

[budomove]

Does Dartmouth have one of these?

Is that how you got down for the Rutgers Cycling Event?

Pretty Cool, I hope we get natural gas busses/taxis in ny soon, there is a filling station going up, and the pollution is nasty.

[Big Dave]

US natural gas supplies are very tight. Currently gas sells on the NYMEX at about $9/DTh. I have seen it at $17 a couple times in the last couple years. If you added a huge new demand its price would be astronomical.

Natural gas for vehicular purposes competes against residential natural gas.

[H4MM3R]

Natural Gas cost 1/3 less than Gasoline at the pump.

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by H4MM3R

Natural Gas cost 1/3 less than Gasoline at the pump.

Depends where you are at. I looked into doing a conversion last year and CNG was as expensive as gas.

[H4MM3R]

This is where I got the information on the 1/3 price. http://www.ngvc.org/index.html
Your right Lazarus. The price is about the same.

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by H4MM3R

This is where I got the information on the 1/3 price. http://www.ngvc.org/index.html
Your right Lazarus. The price is about the same.

I was pretty excited about doing a conversion more for environmental reasons then money savings but here in Tx they have it so messed up, between price and getting the conversion certified, it was just to expensive.

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

US natural gas supplies are very tight. Currently gas sells on the NYMEX at about $9/DTh. I have seen it at $17 a couple times in the last couple years. If you added a huge new demand its price would be astronomical.

Natural gas for vehicular purposes competes against residential natural gas.

Market manipulation. Same with oil. If the gov announced that it would no longer add to the SPR, you would see the price of crude plummet over night. They wouldn't have to actually do it, just announce it.

[GenKreton]

Originally Posted by H4MM3R

Natural Gas cost 1/3 less than Gasoline at the pump.

Maybe I having been missing something but I don't recall having ever seen a natural gas pump for a car in my entire life. Is this something New England doesn't have or have I just been blind? Is this semi-common in other areas?

[tjts1]

If you have a gas stove in your house you refuel an NGV at home.

[RH77]

Originally Posted by GenKreton

Maybe I having been missing something but I don't recall having ever seen a natural gas pump for a car in my entire life. Is this something New England doesn't have or have I just been blind? Is this semi-common in other areas?

They're pretty obscure. You can find them mostly on the West Coast (Cali or AZ), and many city fleet maintenance centers. Here, the Water Department uses Civic GXs for their light-duty fleet, with refueling at their private locations. Same for the airport. Inter-terminal and Parking Transit Buses run on CNG/LNG and refuel at their garage. It's all hidden from the public.

The Phill device (link earlier) is only available in some states ("Right" and "Left" Coasts + New England/Inland). Depends on the law, and mostly, marketing.

RH77

[Big Dave]

“Natural Gas cost 1/3 less than Gasoline at the pump.”

Dave sez:
Natural gas is not subject to road tax…yet. If a substantial number of people start using it, you can bet the farm the tax man will not be far behind.


Tjts1 posted:
“Market manipulation.”

Dave sez:
Not really. Natural gas has taken over in the industrial sector, supplanting coal (with it high regulatory costs and handling labor). The industrial sector has sopped up all the excess supply of natural gas. Natural gas has become the darling of commodity traders because the balance of supply and demand make it very volatile (in the economic sense) and sensitive to fluctuations in both supply and in demand. But the market is too big to truly manipulate.


GenKreton posted:
“…I don't recall having ever seen a natural gas pump for a car in my entire life.”

Dave sez:
There are a handful at government motor pools. Beyond those, I concur.


Tjts1 posted;
“If you have a gas stove in your house you refuel an NGV at home.”

Dave sez:
You also need a 3000 psi compressor with its 15 HP, 480 volt 3 phase motor.


Just another free lunch that ain't gonna happen.