Myth Busters SUCKS! (HHO mod, does it work?)

[cfg83]

Christ -

Originally Posted by Christ

Great article find, Carlos!

I am positive I got it from someone else here on EM, but I can't remember who/where. Once you know the title, it's super easy to google.

dwtaylorpdx -

I included the description of the engine so that someone could make that very point. I think the goal of the research was to satisfy 1977 emissions standards while employing lean-burn. Just as you say, a carburetor implies (to me) that there is no ECU/PCM + 02 Sensor needing to be spoofed.

CarloSW2

[pgfpro]

So the new title of this thread should be...

Myth Busters Sucks and the HHO mod doesn't work at any level!!!

[Nerys]

So according to this article hydrogen injection might even decrease mpg since it will increase the flame front speed to greater than the actual piston speed we typically see being careful in little cars? ie it would be more suited for performance cars?

[cfg83]

Nerys -

Originally Posted by Nerys

So according to this article hydrogen injection might even decrease mpg since it will increase the flame front speed to greater than the actual piston speed we typically see being careful in little cars? ie it would be more suited for performance cars?

That agrees with what I quoted back in post #130 :

http://ecomodder.com/forum/137151-post130.html

Diesel Dynamometer Testing Analysis
Hydrogen-Boost

CarloSW2

[pgfpro]

Originally Posted by Nerys

So according to this article hydrogen injection might even decrease mpg since it will increase the flame front speed to greater than the actual piston speed we typically see being careful in little cars? ie it would be more suited for performance cars?

According to the article it could decrease mpg at light load when the flame speed needs to be more around what the "petrol ICE" was design for at light load low rpm.

But I don't believe the article is true. From other Hydrogen data sources, Hydrogen has a flame speed of only 13.2ft/second in a petrol ICE. Around 9ft/sec at one atm.

[pgfpro]

Originally Posted by cfg83

Nerys -



That agrees with what I quoted back in post #130 :

http://ecomodder.com/forum/137151-post130.html



CarloSW2

I do believe that Hydrogen can help in a diesel application. I have seen this first hand with the company I work for. (ABA testing long haul vehicles).

But I will be honest and say I don't understand diesel engines like I should and feel I can't add anything helpfull in this area.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Christ

Phil -

The oxygen. I've asked a few times of all those HHO marketers why it simply gets wasted en passant, and noone has ever been able to give me an answer.

That's part of the reason that I don't believe in the whole HHO 'ghost marketing' scam that goes on. If the Oxygen is there, and the HHO increases the combustion rate of the fuel, it also needs to increase the combustion intensity, creating a resultant stronger pressure wave over a shorter period of time (exactly the opposite of how a diesel engine works, for those who care), that should be converting the H, H, and O back into water, leaving the normal combustion gasses unaltered, no?

As potentially misinformed about the chemical reaction in the combustion chamber as I very well may be (not a chemistry major), I just don't see the "extra" oxygen being in the exhaust stream to begin with, so no further modifications should be necessary to "see a gain" from HHO, correct?

Ok, so the math may be there to support the enhanced combustion theorem (source, please?), but I still can't warp my intelligence enough to figure out where this "extra" oxygen gas comes from.

Christ,from what I gather from the greencar papers,in only one instance is the oxygen inducted.And there is no claim as to the significance of this.So that is a dead end without more data.
With respect to flame speed and peak pressures,etc.,the flame propagates at a higher velocity,it burns over a longer time period,with complete oxidation of the charge,with a flatter pressure peak plateau ( no spikes which could cause destruction ),little time for Nitrogen to react,and lower exhaust gas temp.
The complete combustion allows for less fuel for same power output.
The fast burning hydrogen may act as a catalyst might,cracking the long hydrocarbon chain molecules,exposing them better to the combustion dynamics as the "swirl" does in Widmer's,or "homogenizer" with Yunick.
Would like to see more science on it all.

[aerohead]

From Professor Vosper's work I get the impression that the hydrogen is of value during "highway" operation.
He's from Canada.When I was last there,the speed limit was 100-Km/h.Would I be free to presume that he did his highway testing at this speed?
If a net 21% mpg improvement is realized,that sounds pretty good.
Widmer's high-swirl designs were netting 0.37 lbs/hp-hour BSFC.
Would hydrogen injection on top of 0.37 lb BSFC show even lower consumption? Or is the benefit from hydrogen achieved with the high-swirl,lean-burn engine,with no further room for improvement?
In a camshaft comparison published by HOT ROD,their Chevy 350 V-8 never performed better than 0.49 lb/hp-hr.That's with optimized cam degreeing,fuel mixture,and ignition timing,and typically at rpm's around 3,000 or below.

[Christ]

I've been trying to find more information on Larry Widmer's high swirl designs, actually. I have all the archives on his site copied, but I can't find anything else on it, other than a few sparse forum posts.

I'd love to see what Larry has to say about Singh's Grooves... LOL.

21% on my van would be another 5MPG... that would shoot me into mid 30's, and sure, that would be great.