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Old 04-17-2017, 11:29 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by gil View Post
I don't mind, as the amount isn't astronomical. Fuel taxes also went up, but it's needed as they haven't gone up for a long time. Roads need fixing. Only downside is if the electric car isn't driving 12,000 miles a year, then one would be paying higher than average.

Gil
Not arguing with you but, rather, pointing out the fact that California, like almost all the other states (including Arizona), over those same years, have NOT really been returning much to their highway systems beyond minimal repairs...in other words: "...highway funds have been SPENT elsewhere, for OTHER things..."

So, charging EV's is probably NOT going to IMPROVE any highways, UNTIL state gobberments quit spending tax money as if it were their own...and...begin to DO what was PROMISED to be done with the money in the first place.

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Old 04-17-2017, 12:14 PM   #12 (permalink)
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What they are going to do is when the roads really start falling apart they will raise taxes so they can be fixed.
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Old 04-17-2017, 04:14 PM   #13 (permalink)
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My volt keeps track of every kwhr it uses and reports it back to big brother, leaf does the same.

Given the law won't affect current EVs (only 2020 or later)

A simple KWHR meter could be required on the car and the "energy tax" could be pegged to usuage just as it is with a gas car.

Miles traveled, flat fees and their ilk aren't fair taxation on 100mpge vehicles.

Road damage goes up exponentially with weight and speed, this means an eco driver does much less damage than a typical driver. Also road damage being an exponent means that anything under 10,000 lbs does statistically insignificant amounts of damage to the road.
Primary road tax should always fall on commercial vehicles and trucks.

Further even in Cali, there are only 87,000 BEVs in state out of 270,000 ish cumulative plug ins + hydrogen cars sold there to date. That is about 1 true EV for every 367 vehicles (there are 31 million vehicles in Cali )
(A bev doesn't have an ice)
Cali BEVs travel far fewer miles than the national average, Cali Chevy volts travel more electric miles than the BEVs in that state (as of 2015)

Please note the cumulative ev number 270,000ish sometimes used (like in a wiki) for Cali is misleading, wrecked cars stay in "that" number and plug in hybrids are also in "that" number, over half of "used" EVs leave California at some point via auction which also is neglected in "that" number.

Put another way, if these EVs were equivalent gas cars California would collect an additional $1.9-4.2 million dollars in gas tax in addition to the roughly 19 billion they currently collect or about .01 percent more consumer gas tax, enough to pave 1 or 2 miles of 2 lane highway.
Their current collection scheme nets them 8.5 million a year, roughly 2-4x more than an equivalent fleet of gas economy cars would pay (last year) given current mileage metrics.

(yes I'm just looking at the primary form of gas tax in Cali as of last year, move numbers up proportionally if you don't like it)

Based on the average hidden municipal "tax" baked into Calis per KWHR rate moving these cars electric consumption to gas would loose Cali municipalities about $4.9 million a year in electric tax (this is not including the fixed taxes, only the average incremental per kwhr municipal tax most areas like California levie hidden in your per kwhr rate)

My point is electric cars already pay lots of tax, just not as of yet road tax, there are so few even in the most EV centric state that the amount of tax collected is irrelevant, the rate of taxation based off a 12,000 mile 25mpg car isn't necessarily fair either and states that charge high EV taxes tend to be net exporters of used electric cars (like all the used leafs from Georgia for sale all over the country)

Put from another point of view, I use a max of about $93 of electricity a year to run my volt, who here would want to see gas prices doubled by a taxation mechanism while other forms of energy are taxed at a lower rate?

Perhaps to early for legislators to be having this discussion and perhaps what they feel is fair will have unintended consequence.

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Old 04-18-2017, 09:20 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I don't mind it much, but to be fair it should be based on vehicle weight and use. The use part should be based on road maintenance caused by weather/time, and the weight part should be based on the damage caused.
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Old 04-19-2017, 11:47 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Tele man View Post
Not arguing with you but, rather, pointing out the fact that California, like almost all the other states (including Arizona), over those same years, have NOT really been returning much to their highway systems beyond minimal repairs...in other words: "...highway funds have been SPENT elsewhere, for OTHER things..."

So, charging EV's is probably NOT going to IMPROVE any highways, UNTIL state gobberments quit spending tax money as if it were their own...and...begin to DO what was PROMISED to be done with the money in the first place.
I'm curious. How much does Arizona collect in highway funds and how much do they spend on transportation? In Oregon our transportation spending far exceeds what we collect in transportation related taxes and our roads continue to deteriorate. The numbers:

ODOT budget: $3.4 billion

Revenue:
1.10 billion (Fuel Taxes)
0.77 Billion (Driver's fees)
0.72 Billion (Federal Highway Funds)
0.61 Billion (Weight / mile taxes)
0.11 Billion (Lottery)
0.03 Billion (General Fund)

Oregon gasoline consumption peaked back in 2006. That is why Oregon is experimenting with a $1.5 cents per mile tax instead of a gas tax. I participated in the program (OReGO) for a year and the program worked flawlessly.
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Old 04-20-2017, 11:01 AM   #16 (permalink)
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JSH - Good question, to which I have no specific answer at the moment. However, PART of AZ's problem is that we're mostly rural with basically only three BIG cities...then all the rest:

Phoenix - largest city & state capitol & mostly red politically.
Tucson - 2nd largest city & mostly blue politically.
Flagstaff - 3rd largest city & was one-time capitol
Yuma - 4th largest city (due to winter "snowbirds").

Here, most of the money goes first to Phoenix & Maricopa County, second to state highway roads, lastly to other cities (Tucson, Flagstaff, Yuma) in descending order...the result of LOTS of political "in-fighting."
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Old 04-20-2017, 01:37 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr
Not so sure about EVs going mainstream so soon at all, but when we look at Tesla and the way it makes them look quite attractive it doesn't seem so unlikely that they're retaining some support from the geeks with deep pockets.
Which countries have plans for all new cars to be electric, and when?

Norway, The Netherlands, then Germany.

Quote:
The country with the most ambitious electric-car goal, though, may be India.

Rather than simply ending sales of new internal-combustion cars, India's government wants to make all cars in the country electric by 2030.

This would hinge on an incentive program that would allow people to buy electric cars very cheaply.
OTOH, once the Artificially Intelligent flocking software and batteries are up to the task, flying cars will mean the end of all that wear of rubber against concrete. And brake dust in the air.
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Old 04-20-2017, 01:47 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I remember back in the 90s, all through the 90s in the US they were saying almost all cars would be electric by 2020.
Since we are almost half way through 2017 I'm going to have to call it.
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:03 PM   #19 (permalink)
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'they' again? When will 'they' get it right?


http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-autonomous-flying-car-really
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Old 04-20-2017, 06:04 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
I remember back in the 90s, all through the 90s in the US they were saying almost all cars would be electric by 2020.
Since we are almost half way through 2017 I'm going to have to call it.
Then under Bush the trends switched to Hydrogen and ethanol, while Obama was more supportive to BEVs and shale gas. The problem with alternative fuels and other approaches for eco cars are driven more by the political conveniences of the moment than technical aspects. Hydrogen is mostly out of question since it's too expensive and unsafe to store, while EVs would mostly just switch the emissions from the vehicles' tailpipes to the chimneys of powerplants, and most people seem to ignore the losses on the grid. Anyway, unless some major improvement is done to the electric grid to fulfill the increasing demand from EVs and battery charging becomes as quick as filling a gasoline tank, I wouldn't hold my breath for electric cars to become mainstream so soon.

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