Project 100 (custom enclosed Honda C90 targets 100 mph vmax and 100 km/L FE)

[Frank Lee]

[QUOTE=CFECO;269681]Millions of small block Chevy engines produced in over half a century plus the hotrod market = low cost due to large demand and supply. Small diesel engines have a relatively small demand here, plus the enormous cost for new design and tooling for production all add up to high cost. Due to EPA regulations, even small off highway engines have to meet stringent emission standards which also increases cost/quote]

The diesels are just simple lil piston engines, no rocket science required. There's some castings and some stampings and some automated machining. There would be some premium for the injector system vs a gasser but the prices from the N. American suppliers are nothing short of ludicrous. The equivalent diesel from China costs 1/4 as much. I'm sure the Kohler is better quality, but is it 4x better? This is another reason the U.S. mfg base is going to hell in a handbasket.

[PeterS]

They have automatic decompression.Lot's of those engines used on small bikes .. slow but VERY economical !

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

You wil need some serious strength to pull start a 9.8 HP diesel engine.

regards
Mech

[CFECO]

China: No EPA, ADA, HHS, OSHA, IMSHA, NLRB, ICC...etc. Coming from a small farming society, which had a large demand for small power units, with "dirt cheap" labor in the factories, small diesel engine production made sense. The US does not have the demand for tens of thousands of these small machines any more. Perhaps in the future, if things continue down the road we are on, subsistence farms may make a necessary comeback.
When you figure in the manufacturing "cost", it is better for the environment to rebuild a good machine multiple times than, throw it away and buy several new inexpensive ones.

[Frank Lee]

When you figure in the manufacturing "cost", it is better for the environment to rebuild a good machine multiple times than, throw it away and buy several new inexpensive ones.

EXACTLY!!! But people who do that any more are in the very, very small minority. I can almost totally- maybe even totally if I was in a more populated area or worked harder at it- live in luxury by scavenging what slobs throw away. It never ceases to amaze me at how much discarded stuff I find that only needs minor repair- or even NO repair, just clean up!!!- to be perfectly functional.

There are tens of thousands or maybe even millions of small engines out there but we haven't made the jump from gas to diesel.

[TXwaterdog]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

EXACTLY!!! ... live in luxury by scavenging what slobs throw away. It never ceases to amaze me at how much discarded stuff I find that only needs minor repair- or even NO repair, just clean up!!!- to be perfectly functional...

I bet you cruise the free sections of craigslist and the green sheet alot. I've saved thousands by doing small upkeep. I remember one of my cost saving projects back in college. My microwave suddenly stopped working. The roommate was insistent on going to buy a new one. I had him hold off until the next day when I opened up the magic box and I found a built in fuse. I suspected it had blown, swapped it out for a radio shack replacement.. and bamm, the microwave was fixed for less than $5 and under 10 mins. That one project saved me about $50. And it's a great example of our throw away mentality.

I'm sure you can find a motor out there for your project. A discarded diesel generator would be the first place I'd look for a diesel.. but small displacment gas vtwin motors with transmissions can be pulled off of inoperable riding lawn mowers and large garden tillers. A wreaked 4wheeler would be another place to look for a small displacement engine and transmission. Discarded golf carts, etc... the sources are basically endless if you know what you're looking for.

If it's an electric motor you're looking for just about anything can be utilized for small eco projects like motorizing a bicycle from a small car windshield washer motor to a 2hp 110v/220v pool pump motor. There's uses for it all. I've seen videos of people using only an electric drill directly attached to the chain.

[visionary]

Thoughts about engine choice

I’m thankful to all who have made suggestions about potential engine alternatives. One key aspect of this project is the proprietary nature of the engine, in fact it should be possible to fit many different types within the frame design. However the essential feature of my design is the “under the seat” location, which excludes all vertical piston engines. Unfortunately there are too few motors with “horizontal” architecture, particularly diesel versions. Hopefully this will change in the future, as manufacturers around the world align their products with the new realities of efficiency being more important than brute power.

Thoughts about cooling
Thanks to beatr911 for his information on cooling ducts, particularly the ratio of area to hp. I haven’t seen published figures for this before and its good to get a confirmation that my guesswork is “in the ballpark”. At its narrowest point the intake duct is 30mm x 265mm, which equates to 12.3sq inches. Racecar ducted cooling systems are often described as “push and pull” systems, referring to the use of pressure differentials. I feel that the “pull” element, extracting into a low pressure zone is the more important of the two forces. Therefore I am making my exit vent size about twice the size of the inlet.
Some time ago I saw a Honda C90 for sale on e-bay with a 100cc liquid cooled engine conversion but I have not been able to find more info about this. Obviously I would prefer to run a liquid cooled motor at some point, and if the project falls short of its target, then a Honda Wave/Innova 125 is a prime candidate.

[janvos39]

Visionary. Do consider to make your engine liquid cooled. Welding a jacket around the cooling fins (only top half of the stroke) with an inlet and outlet tube. Use an electric 12V pump for the water circulation. This can solve your potential cooling problems.

[beatr911]

Originally Posted by janvos39

Visionary. Do consider to make your engine liquid cooled. Welding a jacket around the cooling fins (only top half of the stroke) with an inlet and outlet tube. Use an electric 12V pump for the water circulation. This can solve your potential cooling problems.

The head is also a very significant location of engine heat. All the hot combustion gasses are exposed to it and pass through it on the exhaust stroke. On the air cooled Porsche 964 heat management became a problem as engine output climbed from the fantastically durable 911 series motors and leaner emissions produced hotter gasses. It was partially addressed through ceramic coating inside the exhaust port. Commercially available spray-on ceramic coatings have been available to engine builders for several years now for coating piston tops, cylinder heads, valves and ports. These may help in reducing heat transfer to the engine by keeping the heat in the gas, where it belongs.

Engine oil is a good conductor of heat and is used in many air cooled engines to assist in head and piston cooling. The aforementioned Porsche engines were largely oil cooled, the Suzuki GSXR air/oil cooled motors, the lowly GS500 even received an oil cooler, and many more high output motors. I'm sayin' please ensure plenty of air flow directly on the engine cases to keep the oil from getting too hot. If you can find an oil cooler (I think they exist for these motors from the pitbike guys) it would probably be a worthwhile addition.

[renault_megane_dci]

Drilling holes in the fins helps with cooling too (as long as you have air)

BUT !
A lot of scooters are horizontal and liquid cooled like Piaggio X9. Seeing as you are in Uk, I guess you can source some, there are lots in France at least round 300 € for a full working engine ...

You can keep the CVT (even if it is not very efficient) and just add chain and gearing to accomodate for the different wheel size.
Ho and some are FI too !

[Quasimoto]

Visionary, what been happening? Any new progress, thoughts?