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Old 06-20-2017, 02:27 PM   #61 (permalink)
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FYI:

Do stop/start systems wear out the starter motor? Discussion with an engineer.

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Old 06-20-2017, 02:36 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecky View Post
People had this concern with the G1 Insight when it first came out. The logic was that frequent engine stops would allow the oil to drain out and temperature to briefly drop. However, over the last 17 years, the engines in these cars have proven extremely reliable, with plenty of examples lasting over half a million miles without a rebuild, and some far more than that.
As long as the oil pressure builds up quickly enought to provide lube for the valvetrain, and eventually the engine is fitted with a pressure-sensitive valve that decreases the drain flow when the engine is shut off in order to retain some oil in the head for the subsequent start, there might be no further damage.


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The only thing I can think of that would see wear would be the starter, which is easy enough to replace and probably paid for several times over by the fuel saved.
That's a good excuse to get a starter-generator, which is also going to eventually provide some mild-hybrid abilities like that BAS-Hybrid system. And there are also the full-hybrids that get rid of the starter and the alternator at all. So in mid to long term any concern about starter wear associated to idle shut-off might become outdated.
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Old 06-20-2017, 03:31 PM   #63 (permalink)
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I don't need an "behind the counter" paid engineer to tell me about something I know from 25 years of working on cars.
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Old 06-20-2017, 04:13 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr View Post
As long as the oil pressure builds up quickly enought to provide lube for the valvetrain, and eventually the engine is fitted with a pressure-sensitive valve that decreases the drain flow when the engine is shut off in order to retain some oil in the head for the subsequent start, there might be no further damage.
I don't believe the Insight's engine has such a valve. It simply hasn't been an issue for any of the engines Honda and Toyota use in their hybrids, for whatever reason. They're still among the lowest failure rate and longest lasting component in the drivetrain. So whatever the theory, it has proven a non-issue in practice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr View Post
That's a good excuse to get a starter-generator, which is also going to eventually provide some mild-hybrid abilities like that BAS-Hybrid system. And there are also the full-hybrids that get rid of the starter and the alternator at all. So in mid to long term any concern about starter wear associated to idle shut-off might become outdated.
Yeah, ultimately these are all just electric motors, and it's not hard to build an electric motor that can outlive any gasoline engine it's bolted onto. It's probably cheaper to have just a single motor/generator than having separate starters and alternators anyway.
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:08 PM   #65 (permalink)
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238,000 miles on my "abused" starter. Had to replace the solenoid contacts before I started hypermiling. According to my fuel log here, I've been hypermiling this Civic for over 45,000 miles. I've saved thousands of dollars in fuel and spent hundreds in repairs, none of which were caused by hypermiling. If anything, my driving style is easier on cars than the way most people drive.
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:22 PM   #66 (permalink)
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I have taken apart engines that have sat in barns or shops for 20 years and they still had oil up in them.
So "the oil draining out of the upper parts of the engine" when it sits for a minute or 2 is an old wives tail.

Wearing out the stater sooner is also arm chair mechanicing. When I was in the air force we had a pretty dumb set of rules that caused flightline vehicles to be stopped and started about 100 times a day for 5 to 7 days per week. Doing this cut the starter life by maybe 1/3 of what you would expect the average consumers vehicle.
So 5 or 10 more starts per day isn't going to do anything.
Time is what seems to kill them.

There is no way people who actually work on vehicles or engines come up with this garbage.
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Old 06-20-2017, 10:15 PM   #67 (permalink)
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In my experience even "worn out" starters are rarely worn out; they just need new brushes which are relatively cheap and easy to install.
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Old 06-21-2017, 06:07 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecky View Post
I don't believe the Insight's engine has such a valve. It simply hasn't been an issue for any of the engines Honda and Toyota use in their hybrids, for whatever reason. They're still among the lowest failure rate and longest lasting component in the drivetrain. So whatever the theory, it has proven a non-issue in practice.
Even though it may eventually not have that valve (it's fitted to the oil filter cartridge, not to the engine itself), I'm sure neither Toyota or Honda would want to harm their reputation with oil-starving issues and would find a way to overcome any possible worry about it.


Quote:
Yeah, ultimately these are all just electric motors, and it's not hard to build an electric motor that can outlive any gasoline engine it's bolted onto. It's probably cheaper to have just a single motor/generator than having separate starters and alternators anyway.
It wouldn't surprise me if starter-generators would become mainstream in non-hybrid cars in the mid term, not just due to an eventually lower cost but also to meet stricter fuel-efficiency requirements. Being able to also incorporate regenerative braking seems possible too.

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