Go Back   EcoModder Forum > Off-Topic > The Lounge
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-31-2017, 02:44 AM   #11 (permalink)
Engine-Off-Coast
 
Natalya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 275

Hyper Black - '10 Honda Insight LX
90 day: 48.57 mpg (US)
Thanks: 96
Thanked 121 Times in 79 Posts
G2 Honda Insights are really cheap right now, in some cases almost as cheap as G1's.

I don't see how reducing fuel economy standards would help there be more jobs. All the FE tech that new 2017 cars have, the R&D has been done, it's just a matter of putting the physical components on the cars. Maybe you reduce the cost of your Focus by $500 or something. I doubt that's going to increase sales to the point that you start to hire more workers. I think this is all a red herring.

__________________

Silver 2001 Insight (Sold)
  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 01-31-2017, 09:43 AM   #12 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 19,219

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
90 day: 67.58 mpg (US)

ForkenSwift - '92 Geo Metro EV
Last 3: 95.68 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 38.25 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,929
Thanked 4,647 Times in 2,322 Posts
Used Prius prices (mostly looking at gen 2) in my neck of the woods have dropped by 25-40% in the past year or so.
__________________
Latest mods test: 15 mods = 15% MPG improvement: A-B test, 2007 Honda Civic 1.8L, 5-speed
Ecodriving test:
Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown: Nissan Micra 1.6L



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2017, 12:10 PM   #13 (permalink)
Growin a stash
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 398
Thanks: 208
Thanked 123 Times in 95 Posts
I don't think gas prices are going far with the Tesla M3 on the horizon.
__________________


2015 Nissan Leaf S
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2017, 12:28 PM   #14 (permalink)
Tyrant-at-large
 
Vman455's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Champaign, IL
Posts: 762

Little Red - retired - '05 Honda Civic EX
90 day: 49.03 mpg (US)

Pope Pious the Prius - '13 Toyota Prius Two
Team Toyota
90 day: 48.35 mpg (US)
Thanks: 71
Thanked 592 Times in 300 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Government jobs maybe.
I think the fuel economy standards should go up over time. But not what the ridiculous standard they set, what was it something like 65mpg by 2025.
As lighter materials become cheaper to use and technology improves the auto makers would only implement these when it can make the vehicle cheaper to produce. That is the OEMs only motivation.
54.5mpg average CAFE--which is higher than EPA for any given car. But, that number is not accurate because the CAFE standard varies depending on the size of the car. Vehicles like the Prius, C-Max, and Sonata hybrid already easily exceed their 2025 CAFE.

Where it gets wonky is because of that size measurement--cars with similar wheelbases, like the Ford Fiesta (98") and Porsche 911 (96.5") are held to the same 2025 standard of 61.1 mpg CAFE, theoretically. That has to be qualified because, based on sales of a manufacturer's various models that determine its unique average CAFE mandate, the 911 doesn't have to get outrageous mileage at all if VW sells enough more-efficient cars to bring its average up, earns credit by selling cars with low-energy-consumption lights or other accessories, buys credits from other manufacturers, or sells enough alternative-fuel vehicles, which are counted at a higher rate than the real number sold (EVs are worth 2.0x, plug-in hybrids 1.6x, etc.) to increase its CAFE for the company as a whole, which is the number that ultimately matters.

Example:

Sketchy Motors sells 8 cars in 2025--two large cars that must achieve 46 MPG CAFE, 2 mid-size cars at 50 MPG, and 4 small cars, 2 ICE and 2 EV, that must get 61.1 MPG, the highest CAFE tier. Based on these sales, and since they aren't a subsidiary brand of a larger company, Sketchy Motors must achieve an average CAFE of 54.5 MPG. Since one of their models was electric, Sketchy Motors' accountants can multiply its sales by 1.5 (the credit phases down from 2.0 in 2021) when figuring the company's average fuel economy.

Say their large car gets an actual CAFE of 30 MPG, their midsize 42 MPG, their small car 55 MPG, and their small EV 105 MPGe. The EV gets counted 1.5x, and their actual CAFE average is 63.2 MPG. Not only does Sketchy Motors easily achieve their CAFE mandate despite 75% of their model line-up underperforming their ostensible targets by a wide margin, Sketchy Motors has enough excess credit that it can sell to an unlucky manufacturer, like truck-heavy Chrysler, and make some extra profit.

Here's a primer on CAFE published when the mandate was first proposed that explains everything. Despite the "unlikely chance" mentioned in that article of gas going back to $2.00/gallon having happened, the CAFE mandate remains generously biased toward manufacturers, and is tied to the actual size and number of models sold, not some theoretical average (like the 54.5 MPG that has constantly been reported; that number is drawn from predictions and industry forecasts which are subject to change and inaccuracy).
__________________


Last edited by Vman455; 01-31-2017 at 12:57 PM.. Reason: not a math major
  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Vman455 For This Useful Post:
ThermionicScott (01-31-2017), Xist (01-31-2017)
Old 01-31-2017, 01:50 PM   #15 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 4,796
Thanks: 0
Thanked 420 Times in 376 Posts
Though I'm highly unfavorable to the engine displacement-biased taxation system enforced in my country, I do believe some measure that would be deemed quite "extreme" by a bunch of V8-loving rednecks are the only realistic way to achieve higher fuel-efficiency standars. For example, why nearly everyone else in the world is still allowed to buy a forward-control van about one inch narrower and just a few inches longer than a Corolla that can actually perform the very same duties an American small business owner is forced to get a gas-guzzling V6 or V8 boat anchor to perform? Considering that foreign automakers actually set factories in America when the domestic ones were flying to Canada and Mexico, it would seem more reasonable to allow those companies to offer some of their higher-efficiency products already available not just to overseas markets but also in Mexico. Japan has a taxation system that sounds quite smart to me, since it's based on vehicles' external dimensions and then leads to some optimization of the internal layout.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to cRiPpLe_rOoStEr For This Useful Post:
Biofuel Frank (02-07-2017)
Old 01-31-2017, 02:32 PM   #16 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 4,580
Thanks: 176
Thanked 648 Times in 470 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by botsapper View Post
They ask (regulation killer)Trump, they want 'regulations' combined to a single standard and fuel economy targets reflect the kinds of cars Americans actually want to buy...F-Series, Rams, Silverados...
I wonder - well, no, I'm actually pretty darn certain that the advertising budgets for those F-series &c are many times higher than for the US automakers more fuel-efficient models. So do Americans [u]actually[u] want to buy them, or are they persuaded by the drumbeat of endless advertising? And conversely, if a lot of people really wanted to buy those things, why do the automakers think they have to spend so much on advertising?

(Warning: sorta political rant ahead)

Really, isn't this just more of what we've heard from US automakers ever since the first VW Beetle landed on these shores? "Oh, we can't possibly build cars like that/meet those pollution standards, whine, whine..." Then foreign automakers just go ahead and do it, US automakers lose market share, beg for taxpayer bailouts, then finally manage to sorta catch up - at which point the cycle starts again, after the loss of more market share (and US jobs) to foreign competitors.
  Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to jamesqf For This Useful Post:
BabyDiesel (03-18-2017), Daschicken (02-20-2017), Frank Lee (01-31-2017), Lemmy (02-03-2017), pgfpro (02-17-2017), samwichse (03-08-2017), ThermionicScott (01-31-2017), Xist (01-31-2017)
Old 01-31-2017, 07:51 PM   #17 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 4,796
Thanks: 0
Thanked 420 Times in 376 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
I wonder - well, no, I'm actually pretty darn certain that the advertising budgets for those F-series &c are many times higher than for the US automakers more fuel-efficient models. So do Americans [u]actually[u] want to buy them, or are they persuaded by the drumbeat of endless advertising? And conversely, if a lot of people really wanted to buy those things, why do the automakers think they have to spend so much on advertising?
The average Joe has been persuaded to see the full-size trucks as a part of the American dream, in spite of them being rather crude with their body-on-frame layout and leaf-sprung solid rear axle that didn't really evolve so much in the last 60 years. But it's quite cheap to make, subjected to less stringent fuel-efficiency and emission standards, and can be loaded with so many gadgets to a point that its payload may eventually become ridiculously low in order to remain at a low GVWR class in order to not require a commercial driver license. Then, while an ego-hauler truck might be profitable, the artificially-grown demand for them ends up serving as an excuse to phase out simpler features that would serve just right for many professionals who would be just looking for an affordable workhorse.


Quote:
Really, isn't this just more of what we've heard from US automakers ever since the first VW Beetle landed on these shores? "Oh, we can't possibly build cars like that/meet those pollution standards, whine, whine..." Then foreign automakers just go ahead and do it, US automakers lose market share, beg for taxpayer bailouts, then finally manage to sorta catch up - at which point the cycle starts again, after the loss of more market share (and US jobs) to foreign competitors.
Considering that both Ford and GM were still able to either develop efficiency-enhanced vehicles catering to other markets through their overseas branches or occasionally just outsourcing them, sometimes their domestic market strategies on how to compete with foreign automakers becomes somewhat dumb. For example, why did Ford take so long to introduce the Transit to the American market? Even though the E-Series vans could rely on some parts interchangeability with the F-Series trucks, the enhanced efficiency and practicality of overseas-designed vans and their broader appeal to global markets would not only justify their presence in the domestic market but also become a more valuable asset for export.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2017, 08:45 PM   #18 (permalink)
ScanGauge <3
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: CID
Posts: 267

Winter Sacrifice - '96 Subaru Outback
Subaru
90 day: 24.58 mpg (US)
Thanks: 137
Thanked 84 Times in 61 Posts
"Ego-hauler", I like it.
__________________



Best tank (so far): 32 MPG
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2017, 10:23 PM   #19 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Earth
Posts: 4,580
Thanks: 176
Thanked 648 Times in 470 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr View Post
...can be loaded with so many gadgets,,,
I may have seen the ultimate the other day. Oversized forget-the-brand (if I even noticed) truck pulls up as I'm coming out of the grocery store, I hear this electric motor sort of whine, and it extends running boards with steps so the people can climb down.

I also have to wonder how the so-called average Joe manages to pay for these things. Not to brag or anything, but I'm well above average financially, and the end-of-model-year discounts I hear advertised are more than I've ever paid for a car.
  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to jamesqf For This Useful Post:
MobilOne (02-08-2017), niky (02-17-2017)
Old 01-31-2017, 11:27 PM   #20 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 4,796
Thanks: 0
Thanked 420 Times in 376 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
Oversized forget-the-brand (if I even noticed) truck pulls up as I'm coming out of the grocery store, I hear this electric motor sort of whine, and it extends running boards with steps so the people can climb down.
I noticed this feature for the first time in a previous-generation Cadillac Escalade.


Quote:
I also have to wonder how the so-called average Joe manages to pay for these things.
I also have no idea about it, but it's often pointed out that some small businessmen or entrepreneurs use income tax rebates when they buy such an ego-hauler just because it's titled as a commercial vehicle even though it's not likely to be used for business purposes at all.


Quote:
Not to brag or anything, but I'm well above average financially, and the end-of-model-year discounts I hear advertised are more than I've ever paid for a car.
It's a matter of priorities.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com