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Old 07-13-2017, 07:52 PM   #91 (permalink)
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A dipstick with a cross piece to fit on the filler neck and a bubble level might do the job. I know the Green Grand Prix people like to get most of their gas at a ethanol free pump near the marina before the official top off at the specified station in town.

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Old 07-13-2017, 07:58 PM   #92 (permalink)
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The Vetter formula actually compensates for various fuels. To be honest if you are running E0, you should fill again with E0 (since it is likely to cost more) and the results are calculated by cost per mile. The electric bikes paid $0.12/ kWh plus the road tax of the best gas bike.
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Old 07-18-2017, 07:45 AM   #93 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Moore View Post
^^^^ what jkv357 said. Holding a fuel efficiency competition with no real control over the amount of fuel people are using is senseless. You may as well just let people guess what their mileage was and use those numbers to decide who wins.
I'm not against a more accurate fuel measurement for the ride. However, to assume that this event has a bunch of novices that don't know what they're doing when it comes to topping off consistently; that we're not very accurate or consistent in our top off method; and that we've got to protect ourselves from a bunch of serious fuel misers coming in and being careless and/or dishonest and stealing the show is not even close to what happens at either of the two challenges that I've attended.

That's just not a good representation of what's going on. I've watched some of this topping off and discussions about topping off; all these guys have a proven system and they're just as anal as I am about this; and we're all likely just as consistent and just as committed to reporting an accurate result as I am. In fact, this is much more important than the competition to most of us I think. I believe Sendler may have seen some funny stuff; either careless or dishonest, but at the two I've attended, I've witnessed just the opposite.

I trust Scott, Ben, Fred, Vic, Alan, Paul, Nate, Finnie, and myself totally on this point. I'm not just referring to integrity; I'm also referring to accuracy. I trust that if any one of us gets an unexpected result that each of us would communicate that to others. I've seen this happen twice. Once from myself in 2014 and another rider in 2017. Any large variation from what we expect on mpg will be most pronounced to us personally, because we're so anal this way; we know our rides best and what we should be able to achieve. I was going around in 2014 telling anyone who would listen that I wasn't happy with my great score, because I shouldn't have done that well. I was disappointed really. I didn't want it to look like that I don't know what I'm doing or was being dishonest.

I witnessed a rider this year do the same thing. When I asked him, he immediately started talking about it. He was not nearly as happy with his high score as everyone else seemed to be for him, because it was too large of an unexpected jump I assume, and of course I could relate, because in 2014, I was hoping to get my best tank ever, but I did not want or expect to get 13-14 mpg higher than my best tank; and that sort of thing doesn't really make anal folks like us happy. We want something that make sense. We want things to be explained. In my case, it could not have been top off error and I knew it. The tank before mpg and the tank after mpg were normal. I couldn't figure it out and still don't know what happened on that ride. This year, everyone's error could be exaggerated by the short ride and maybe that's what happened. I'm guessing that if you're topping back up with as little as .40 gallon, any error could be exaggerated. But this is no reflection on the filler upper. That person knows how to do this accurately and consistently, and I've never witnessed these so-called pump errors that exist from my experiences filling up. I've experienced some gas being worse than others, but not variations in pumps; or even from the same pump. Maybe others have, but I've not.
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Old 07-18-2017, 03:38 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Greg, a person doesn't need to be suspicious of the honesty of the competitors to realize that a competition needs rules that make sense and that are clear to everyone, and that someone enforces those rules with an even hand.

If a race engine is allowed a maximum of 670cc (to use a familiar number ) and actually measures out to 670.01 cc, it gets excluded as ineligible. The officials don't ask the rider what s/he thinks is the actual displacement, they measure it themselves.

As mentioned previously at Bonneville where there are different classes with different specifications on the fuel, the standard fuel is controlled by the officials. This ensures that people are actually using the fuel they are supposed to be using and reduces the potential for fuel protests. If you show up with an empty tank and the officials fill it with the approved fuel then everyone is on the same page.

If Craig wants to run his event on an honor system with everyone doing their best to track their own fuel consumption that is his call. I suppose for such a small, informal and low-key event where people are just competing for bragging rights it might be difficult to justify going to greater lengths than that. As long as everyone is happy with that, then it is working. As soon as there's a tie and someone decides to get really serious about winning and how accurately fuel consumption was measured then the low-key system may not prevent some bad feelings. I've seen that happen with club racing where nothing more than a $5 trophy and ego are on the line. Once race faces are put on people are racing to win.

http://students.sae.org/cds/supermil...eage_rules.pdf

Look at the detail in article three specifying the fuel and fuel bottle. Note that
Quote:
The competition organizer provides the competition fuel bottle for each fuel economy attempt.
also:
Quote:
D1.7.1 Prior to the performance run, an official fuel tank (supplied by the competition organizers) will be filled, weighed and installed on the vehicle. A member of the vehicle team will perform the installation of the fuel bottle into the vehicle.
. . .
D1.8.1 Upon completion of the six lap performance run, 15.5 km (9.6 miles), the timers will record the elapsed time. The fuel bottle will be removed by a member of the vehicle team; . . . the member must de-pressurize any pressurized fuel systems. The removed fuel bottle will be weighed by the competition organizers.
I'll grant that Supermilage is a different kind of event from Craig's "run what you brung and we sure are glad somebody made the effort to show up" events. Craig's events seem to me to be more about raising awareness than the competition. If the goal is to get entrants to show some significant improvement in fuel economy, then it probably isn't terribly important whether that significant improvement is 30% +/- 5% vs 30% +/- 0.05%.

cheers,
Michael
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Old 07-18-2017, 04:46 PM   #95 (permalink)
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As a former calibration officer in an industrial Quality setting the idea is to get consistent measurements not catch potential cheaters.
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Old 07-18-2017, 08:55 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Moore View Post
^^^^ what jkv357 said. Holding a fuel efficiency competition with no real control over the amount of fuel people are using is senseless. You may as well just let people guess what their mileage was and use those numbers to decide who wins.
Michael. I don't have a problem with anything you stated in that last post. It's the quote from the paragraph in the above post that I have a problem with, and it is that statement that I was responding to defensively. What you said last was not the same as what you said above.

What our guys do is not just a "guess". And the competition is not senseless to the guys and gals who ride in it, even as it is being run today. We're better than that. We're more careful that that, and we know what we're doing with our riding and fueling and measuring. We all do this quite well for amateurs, and no, it's not accurate to the point that a scientist or an engineer might consider it accurate, and it could be true that it may cause contention at some point when it's really close; I'll agree to that, but when it gets to the point that I can tell you my mpg within .5 mpg before I even top up, or about how I'm running half-way through my tank, then that means I'm familiar with my vehicle and mpg, and most of the error is going to be an error that is consistent with most all my measurements; not one tank compared to another. And like I said, I don't have a problem with whatever method the boss wants to come up with for measuring fuel except that I'm not an ecomodder and not even really a hypermiler. I'm sort of an FE enthusiasts, so if it's much harder than connecting a battery, I'm probably going to need help with it or just not come and ride.
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Old 08-19-2017, 04:19 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Thanks to the great photos at Schultz Engineering website I noticed that there is no gap between the tail section and Vic's back. This is definitely something to incorporate in a shell design for good flow.

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