What 'big auto' thinks about fuel efficiency

[bwilson4web]

Recently, Autoline Daily, a podcast I listen to on the way into work, made a claim that 'hybrid battery costs are $6,000'. It took a while to find the sources and I'm not sure I've really got their source but I did come across a 'breakfast' presentation:

http://www.cargroup.org/documents/mcalinden.pdf

I'm not endorsing these charts, just sharing a source. Page 9 is interesting because it shows how 'big auto' sees the price-performance of various technologies to improve fuel economy but one comment.

One of the oldest anti-hybrid claims are battery costs, see page 15, since the first hybrids hit the market. Following inflation (of claims) I've seen anti-hybrid postings as high as $8,000 as battery costs for the Prius. So it is with some amusement to read the latest 'big car' claims bringing up battery costs, again.

Bob Wilson

[dcb]

hmm, well we are on the same page on page 14, re: Power split for hybrids with plug-in. and all of them list aero.

What do you use for a replacement battery cost, 4k for a standard prius? If we consider plug-ins with "decent" electric range, the cost will go up considerably though, you need to spend more on a battery to get more range. What are the prius plug in kits going for, like $8k?

[bwilson4web]

Originally Posted by dcb

. . .
What are the prius plug in kits going for, like $8k?

Prices vary:

• $14k - ReInVolt
• $3.5-13.5k - AutoBeYours

My costs are expected to be $1-3k depending upon the mix of parts in my final package.

Bob Wilson

[euromodder]

Has anyone seen how cheap aero mods are ?
Makes you wonder why we aren't seeing better than 0.25 Cd.

[JasonG]

Aeromods = nearly free changes during design, no life cycle replacement costs and use very old existing technology.

Remember, Big Auto is linked with Big Oil. If vehicles dont die and need a steady supply of parts and dino oil, they dont make money.

[gasstingy]

I couldn't have said it better: Big Auto is linked with Big Oil.

And Big Oil has more money than most Nation States. They can afford to put out a very determined effort against anything that reduces their profits.

[Allch Chcar]

I would have said the batteries alone would be between $500-$1000 depending on the hybrid design. And that is after researching how much those batteries cost on the market and considering that you are buying them from a stealership. If you have them install the batteries then $3k sounds right, lol.

The reason aero mods are unpopular is the lack of respect in my mind. People see weight as something more important and that gets kicked to the curb to beat safety regulations. I don't believe that people realize that aero drag exceeds RR drag as low as 35mph in some cars, and even lower in trucks/suvs. And also considering how heavily style dictates the automotive design. People were disappointed that the Volt lost it's boxy concept style to be more aerodynamic since it ended up looking more like an everyday sedan than a muscle car. And if you want anymore reason look at the Camaro, it kept it's concept style and people still consider the MPG acceptable for what it is.

Big Auto spends billions on fuel efficiency, the only problem is that they start with bigger engines, brick cars, and detune them to meet fuel efficiency which only aggravates people further. But keep drinkin' the conspiracy kool-aid, man. It's not just that Big Oil is huge and owns everybody, people want Oil to be big.

[autoteach]

http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/wp-c...ttery-pack.jpg

Ya know, I think that your right. This does look like $50 in material with only minor amounts of manufacturing to build, so $500-1000 seems reasonable?! Seriously, I imagine that it costs quite a bit to manufacturer this. If you think that they shouldnt have any ROI, then I expect the same for you. If you have gone to college and invested in yourself, you shouldnt be worth any more than a high school education. My guess is that the tooling for these batteries cost some millions more than you would think, as there are a large number of stampings, injections, wiring connections, etc that require a little more planning then going to the grocery store.

[Allch Chcar]

That's the Nissan Leaf pack which is many times larger than a hybrid pack and they are Lithium based which is cheaper and lighter than the standard Hybrid battery. The battery packs in most hybrids like the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight are less than 1k KW-H and comprised of a stack of D cells NIMH(Nickel-metal Hydride), 1.2 volts and 8 amp hrs with high discharge/recharge.

$1k for a stack of 100 D cells is well within profitable even for NIMHs. The Volt battery pack is 20 times larger and valued at over $8k and is even smaller than the Leaf battery pack!

[menaus2]

One of my favorite quotes sums it up well: "It's not the problem that's the problem, it's how you think about the problem that's the problem". People's mindset is focused on hp, safety, and styling. Not only is FE on the bottom of the list, but people's preconceptions about what matters in a car runs against what's necessary in car comprehensively designed around FE. Big Auto is in the money-making business, not the trying to change people's minds' business. High energy prices might make people reconsider their priorities.