What are the car manufacturers doing??

[RH77]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I'm just P.O.d cuz I wanna kei car and they won't lemme have one.

So they are good enough for millions of motorists worldwide, but not here?

RH77- Do/would you ride a bicycle or motorcycle?

I investigated trying to import a new car from Canada and it was a big, expensive roadblock. I think if the vehicle is old enough, you can import one legally. Registering it State-to-State is another issue.

As for a bicycle, I used to ride almost every other day. That was back when I lived closed to a park with a long trail, and I could take back streets to get to it. Today I'd have to haul it somewhere to ride -- IMO too dangerous with the crazy drivers here. A woman was killed just a block from my house by a tanker truck, which is where I fuel-up. It's one incident of many.

Motorcycles -- not so much. I had a dirt bike a while back, and that was enough. I figured out quickly that I need 4 wheels. How much more of an FE boost can I really expect? I rarely see (or hear) anything but loud "cruisers" that likely get less than the average car driver attains.

RH77

[Big Dave]

When the EPA first started putting restrictions on car engines, it was a disaster for the motorist. The cars of 1973 were the worst cars ever built. The relative performance levels of 1972 were not restored until well into the mid 90s, and that took a revolution in computerized engine management.

Yeah, there is a heckuva learning curve – a twenty year learning curve if past is prologue, but we have no engine management revolution showing on the horizon, just $4500 filter/afterburners that wreck fuel economy. The loss of performance may last even longer this time.

And for that we get…what? Has the EPA given us any metric of health benefits that will be realized from Tier II? Not that I know of.

This is a very valid discussion to have. When society is asked to pay a steep price, one has a right to expect some sort of payoff, but I just don’t see any promises about the benefits of Tier II and ULSD requirements.

[dsq]

"When the EPA first started putting restrictions on car engines, it was a disaster for the motorist. The cars of 1973 were the worst cars ever built. The relative performance levels of 1972 were not restored until well into the mid 90s, and that took a revolution in computerized engine management."

This may have been true for american cars but japanese and german cars were thriving and improving all through the 70s and 80s.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Nissan says that they will be "lightweighting" their entire line -- they are going for %15 weight reduction.

Honda is planning a new hybrid-only model that seats 5 and they say it will be the least expensive hybrid sold in the US.

Toyota is working on the 1/X (say: 1 Xth), which is a 4 seat carbon fiber car similar to the Prius -- that has a curb weight of 926 pounds!

Aptera will start production of their Type 1E and Type 1H in October of 2008 -- it gets between 130 and 300+ miles per gallon (equivalent, in the case of the all-electric 1E)!

They are doing just about everything possible to gain efficiency:

Drag is 0.11cg
Weight is ~1,400 pounds (I think)

Check out the Popular Mechanics video about the Aptera:
Aptera's Super-MPG Electric Typ-1 e: Exclusive Video Test Drive

Loremo (in Germany) is going to build a 4 seat car that gets 85mpg in it's faster model, and 157mpg in it's more efficient model. They are starting with a diesel engine (50HP in the former, and 20HP in the latter).

I think we can learn a lot from these and other cars: the Aptera uses three video cameras and three screens on the dash for views behind and beside it. The Loremo has it's raison d'etre of light weight with structural safety, by not having any side doors.

What if Honda put multiple latches on the side doors of the 2009 Fit? How much weight could they save, because the doors add strength and resist impact?

What if they installed video cameras in place of the side mirrors, or designed (mostly) inboard mirrors?

It seems to me that a serial electric hybrid is the way to go, and lighter weight and better aerodynamics are the way to go. Front wheel drive is great for the usual reasons AND you can gain the most regenerative braking that way.

[trikkonceptz]

I would so drive an Aptera, but @ $30K it once again becomes unreasonable. The problem is that the laws of demand and controlling supply are going to reign over our society for time in the future. Driving the costs of efficient vehicles higher than they should be.

I see the Aptera and notice that their are no exoic material being used, just smart engineering, yet it's $30K

That car could be priced @ $20K i'm sure, a level which most commuters would gladly spend on a new car.

So for the not so distant future, modders like me will have to settle for the Aptera Vibe, and hoping to get over 60mpg out of an inefficent gas engine.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

The base Aptera Type 1E is ~$27,000 and the Type 1H is ~$30,000 -- but these are early production numbers, and early adopters will always pay more. And they will average 200+ miles per gallon! The 130mpg is a minimum based on all-hybrid operation, w/o any plug in charging. Plug it in at night, and for about $1-2 of electricity, you can drive ~80 miles before the hybrid generator kicks in.

Say it has a 4-5 gallon gas tank: at minimum, that would be 80+(4 x 130) = 600 miles range. For my typical commute (about 100-110 miles round trip), I could charge it each night, and the would be (6 x 80) + 520 = 1,000 miles between fill ups; or 250mpg plus $6-12 worth of electricity. (Here in New England we pay ~20cents/kwh, which is high, so I'll carry the $2 cost.)

Totaling up the cost of fuel for 100,000 miles would be (4gal x $4 x 100)+($12 x 100) = $2,800 total. Compare this to my Scion xA, which would be (100,000 / 37mpg) x $4 = $10,810.

I would save $8,010 per 100K miles -- so if I drove the Aptera for 200,000 miles, the extra cost would be worth it -- and that is at just $4/gallon! We will likely see $5-5.50 by the end of this year, and $6.50-7 next year -- so the Aptera would pay for itself pretty quickly...

I've been wondering if they want/need to start up an east coast production facility?

[Lazarus]

Has anyone checked into details about insuring one of these Aptera?

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

It is 3-wheeled and it is classified as a motorcycle in most states, I believe. So, if you need to carry collision and theft coverage -- that would be pretty steep. But if you just need medical, it is pretty inexpensive.

If your state requires you to have a motorcycle license -- drive the Aptera for the road test!

[Lazarus]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Hello,

It is 3-wheeled and it is classified as a motorcycle in most states, I believe. So, if you need to carry collision and theft coverage -- that would be pretty steep. But if you just need medical, it is pretty inexpensive.

If your state requires you to have a motorcycle license -- drive the Aptera for the road test!

I would think you would want to carry collision on a 30k vehicle. I'm just wondering if insurance would shy away from them because of parts availiblity.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

I'm sure that your insurance company would have to do the research on it -- a completely new vehicle type.

I rode a BMW K75S for about 11 years. It cost me about $6,000 new in 1987, and if I had gotten collision, I would have paid $1,100/year. So, if you can go for 6 years w/o a claim, then you have saved the cost of replacement.

Just going with the percentages, that means the Aptera would cost you ~$5,000/per year -- obviously this is a wild guess, and before buying an Aptera, I'm sure I would call my insurance agent!

[Big Dave]

The Japanese cars of 1972 were such abominations that they had no place to go but up. All the same they saw their MPG reduced when the first US air pollution standards were promulgated. Toyota and Honda did not really get their current customer base built up until the mid-80s.

VW lost the Beetle to air pollution regs and the Rabbit struggled to sell in the US.

Don't kid me about the 70s and 80s. I was there.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

Honda is introducing three new hybrid models next year, in addition to the Civic Hybrid:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i...kWRKwD90PTF0O0

In addition to the new [unnamed] hybrid, Honda will introduce several other hybrids: a Civic, a new sporty model based on the CR-Z and a Fit subcompact, sold as the Jazz in Europe

The new hybrid's name was not yet disclosed. It will be a five-door sedan seating five passengers, and feature new technology that reduced the size and weight of the hybrid system to increase fuel efficiency

Info on the Fit Hybrid:
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/au..._honda_fi.html

[Big Dave]

Is Honda still selling the Ridgeline?
Is Toyota still selling the Sequoia and Land Cruiser?
Is Nissan still selling the Armada?
Is Volswagen still selling the Touareg?
Is M-B still selling the Gelandewagen?

I think the answer is yes in all cases.

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

Is Honda still selling the Ridgeline?
Is Toyota still selling the Sequoia and Land Cruiser?
Is Nissan still selling the Armada?
Is Volswagen still selling the Touareg?
Is M-B still selling the Gelandewagen?

I think the answer is yes in all cases.

Oh get real. The manufacturers build what customers want to buy. If customers didn't want these cars, the manufaturers wouldn't build them. Simple as that. Nobody is forcing you to buy a g-wagen. When the demand for these vehicles dries up, then they will stop making them.

[Big Dave]

I couldn't agree more, tjts1. Manufacturers make what people buy. That is just as it should be.

But we have posters her posting about "...escalade/Yukon insanity..." Well somebody buys the damn things, so manufacturers make them. People aren't buying them and they are piling up on dealers' lots. Guess what? The manufacturers cut back production.

We get another post about Honda introducing more hybrids, but they, too make gas-hog SUVs and pickups.

Just introducing a little balance.

[jjackstone]

Not only are they piling up on the dealers lots, they are piling up at the manufacturers lots too. Just spoke to an old friend that works for a major manufacturer and he told me that their larger vehicles are piling up at the plant and they are running out of room to park them. Oh, but they are still building them. Anyone know what happens to all the new monster vehicles that don't get sold? Are they stripped for parts or just scrapped and recycled?
JJ

[dsq]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

The Japanese cars of 1972 were such abominations that they had no place to go but up. All the same they saw their MPG reduced when the first US air pollution standards were promulgated. Toyota and Honda did not really get their current customer base built up until the mid-80s.

VW lost the Beetle to air pollution regs and the Rabbit struggled to sell in the US.

Don't kid me about the 70s and 80s. I was there.

Im probably older than you but thats irrelevant.I was around in the 70s and remember quite well the rise of the imports and fall of the domestics and it certainly wasnt emission related but rather economy,quality.Honda and toyota were well established and had a solid customer base by the late 70s.I know,i was there.

[RH77]

Originally Posted by jjackstone

Not only are they piling up on the dealers lots, they are piling up at the manufacturers lots too. Just spoke to an old friend that works for a major manufacturer and he told me that their larger vehicles are piling up at the plant and they are running out of room to park them. Oh, but they are still building them. Anyone know what happens to all the new monster vehicles that don't get sold? Are they stripped for parts or just scrapped and recycled?
JJ

That problem exists here. The Ford plant cranks out F-150s, but the stockpile is at its maximum space allowed. Dealers have them collecting dust, and the plant sits with them parked. Production has nearly ceased. They're focusing on the Escape/Tribute since FE is now a priority for buyers.

The used market and lease exchange agencies and bombarded by SUV/Truck owners wanting to bail.

It seems as if the fuel price hike may have a positive effect on the effort to reduce fuel consumption. Just look at the number of driving trips over Memorial day compared to years past. Record breaking declines.

Environmentally good, but hits fixed-income citizens pretty hard. It's a difficult give and take.

RH77

[NeilBlanchard]

Greetings,

Honda overtakes Ford, and becomes the Number Three in the USA:

This is the 2009 Honda Fit, which will be available as a Hybrid (see my post above).

[i_am_socket]

I'm loving this discussion

Yeah, car models are getting bigger and heavier to meet some arbitrary safety minimum. My 05 Corolla is massive compared to a 95 or 85 Corolla. The only new cars I see on the road these days that even compare in size to a CRX are the Crossfire and other 2 seat sport coups. I also read a report lately about the cost of accident repair increasing ridiculously high as well, but that's another discussion.

Lots of cars are coming out soon (hopefully) that will be small, light, inexpensive, and efficient because the demand is there now. There is nothing that says they can't be made, only that before gas prices went nuts people were eating up the giant APCs and V12 twin supercharged bricks as commuter friendly. Supply and demand. Demand changed and supply will change with it.

I'd love to see a resurgence of the old high FE lines without all the fat of having to be safe vs the SUV behemoths; you'd probably save 800 lbs on average. Move to composite body panels and aluminum frames and there's another chunk of weight saved. Please do away with automatics; I can buy a new one for the cost of having one fixed!

Unfortunately we'll have to wait for any of that (and the killing of the automatic is as likely as outlawing iPods). Till I can go out and buy (or make) my dream car, I'll just keep blaming the general consumer population for being a pack of morons.