Who's at fault?

[Tourigjm]

Just got back from my lunch break (Panera bread = the shiz)

i was almost in two accidents, one on the way there, one on the way back.

the 1st one pisses me off the most. The place I work at is on a busy street, I have to take a left out of there to get most places. So im sitting waiting, ICE off, waiting for a hole so that I can start the car and take my left. There's one car coming from the right, but he's far enough away that I should have plenty of room to get in.

Something i misjudged, his speed. The limit on this road is 35mph, he was probably going around 55-60mph (Ford excursion too btw). As I pull into my lane i see him barreling down on me, i'm probly doing about 25 at this point. I had to step on the gas and accelerate to 45mph quickly while he slammed on his brakes, screeched his tires and proceeded to tailgate me. (i slowed back down to the limit. Flips me off on the first opportunity he has to pass me (in the center turn lane mind you)

My question is... if he had hit, and subsequently destroyed my car who's fault is that. my first guess is his, but i pulled out in front of him

Second encounter, this time with a woman on her cell phone, also in an excursion (something about this truck today). This definitely would have been her fault

On the way back the road narrows from 2 lanes to 1 normally everyone follows a zipper pattern and there isn't too much bad congestion (its right after a redlight so nobody's going real fast) Its my turn to merge when all of a sudden the ***** behind me tries to squeeze around me at the last second (there is only 1 very narrow lane at this point) she almost forces me off the road, i didn't give in and let her pass, i stayed my ground untill she had to pull in behind me because there were cars coming at her. I got flipped off again as I turned into work.


i hate people

[dann_04]

I have the most touble with inconsiderate people in large suv's, trucks, and minivans. I drive a civic and a scooter and they think for some reason neither belongs on the road. They try to pass in the same lane, try to take the right of way at all 4 way stops(if they even stop), and pull out a car length in front of me when i'm doing 40mph. I don't understand it, i think it's because they have what they call a "sense of security" in thier big vehicle, but it really is just a sense on inconsideration and d*#chebagness. No offense to the people in big vehicles who drive in a humane manner i have no problem with you. But the people who have to dominate everyone else on the road because their vehicle is big are the people who piss me off. And btw i think both of those would be thier fault especiually if they could prove speed in the first one. Sorry if i thread jacked lol.

[Tourigjm]

Scanguage records trip top speed. If he'd hit me I'd have that datalogged

[wagonman76]

From what Ive understood:

#1 would be your fault if they broadsided you, but their fault if they rearended you. They say that by the time someone gets out far enough to straighten out, its enough time for the other one to have seen it coming and slow down or stop. I know, it doesnt always work that way.

There was one exception I know of around here (Traverse City), some guy was going over 70 in a 45 zone in his SUV, around a corner, and broadsided a car of kids pulling out of the mall. Dont remember if he killed them or hurt them real bad, but authorities came back and gave him a short jail sentence, after pulling the black box in his SUV and getting the info.

There was this time too that my mom was in a similar situation, she got broadsided by a kid going WAY over the 35 mph limit while she was turning left. His small car spun her extended cab pickup right around, he hit her that hard. Ended up her fault, probably since she didnt get hurt much at all.

#2 would have been your fault since you had to be the one to merge. Thats one thing that ticks me off sometimes too, a lot of the damn tourists gun it and try to block you as you try to merge back in from a passing lane. Whats worse is that Michigan signs always read "lane ends, merge left". So the speeders in the passing lane get the right of way, and its up to the law abiding people in the right lane to find a way to get into their lane. Its a passing lane that comes and goes, so why isnt it the passing lane that ends?

At least nothing really happened.

[Doofus McFancypants]

i was in an accident several years ago.
I was at a stop sign going to cross a quiet neighborhood street.
car was approaching was a good block away ( no stop sign thier way)
I pull out and cross the street - she hits me - she was WAY over 35 MPH.

I got the ticket - as i had the stop sign regardless of how fast she was going.
I had the insurance agent with me and we looked for the skid marks to "PROVE" she was speeding and have the insurance companies "Settle" on some partial responsability - but there were to many marks there to show which were from this incident.

I would suspect - had the accident occured - you would have been at fault as you pulled out when it was not safe. ( But in Civil court - you could have probably won - "Big Mean SUV guy speeds over little car guy")

Depends on the state rules and / or No fault insurance items.

just my $0.03 ( 2 cents adjusted for inflation)

[MazdaMatt]

Fault is a funny word... quite often the d1ckhead that causes the incident due to illegal action or blind foolishness is protected by the "rules of fault". Yeah, pulling out in front of a speeder and getting smoked is probably legally your fault. Speeding so fast and not seeing or caring about a car that is turning in front of you and slamming your brakes at the last second makes you a d1ckhead, but probably not legally liable for the collision.

I wish I had the power to certify people as d1ckheads so that all future accidents are simply their fault.

I won't say that most people that drive big vehicles drive like neanderthals, but most neanderthals definately drive big vehicles.

[azraelswrd]

His speeding would shift some of the blame back to him. But this sounds like a case for Judge Judy...

[superchow]

I learned to drive in Austria where the first law of the Strassenverkehrsordnung ("Rules of the Road") is:

Jeder Straßenbenützer darf vertrauen, daß andere Personen die für die Benützung der Straße maßgeblichen Rechtsvorschriften befolgen, außer er müßte annehmen, daß es sich um Kinder, Sehbehinderte mit weißem Stock oder gelber Armbinde, offensichtlich Körperbehinderte oder Gebrechliche oder um Personen handelt, aus deren augenfälligem Gehaben geschlossen werden muß, daß sie unfähig sind, die Gefahren des Straßenverkehrs einzusehen oder sich dieser Einsicht gemäß zu verhalten.

OK, OK, in English:

Every person using the roads may trust that other people using the road will follow the rules of the road. Except: Children, blind people with a white walking stick, obviously disabled or frail people, or people that through their behavior seem to not be able to follow the rules.

I was taught to have to trust other people's driving - which here in the US is quite impossible. To make this reality fit in with my learned (Austrian) law, I simple assume that anybody that does not follow the laws of traffic, they must be one of the above exceptions. Even when they seem healthy, it sometimes seems as if an inconsiderate truck/SUV/minivan/Acura CL 3.2 driver is either: a child or, blind, or obviously disabled/frail, or all of the above. (Note the absence of the adjective to frailty - could be physical or psychological. )

Makes the drives through Seattle and Portland so much more understandable... (and saves my sanity).

(Quick note: The most valuable lesson I learned while learning to drive was this: If everybody makes no mistakes when driving (no speeding, proper signaling, etc.) then accidents are impossible! Think about it.)

[Tourigjm]

i wouldn't say impossible, there's always mechanical failure.

then again, in a properly maintained vehicle that shouldn't be an issue

I really want to drive in Austria now

[MazdaMatt]

That is an incredible law. When I was learning to drive here I was told to expect that all drivers approaching crossroad reds WILL drive through, all drivers that are in a position to sideswipe me WILL do so and all drivers behind me WILL NOT see my brake lights in an emergency; act accordingly. So I keep a keen eye on crossroads, get the hell out of blind spots and my foot does not move off the gas pedal without my eyes going to the rearview.

It would be nice to drive in a place where the majority takes pride in their ability to not smash their cars all over the road, rather than a place where everyone believes that the "other guy" is always at fault.

[Katana]

Originally Posted by superchow

I was taught to have to trust other people's driving - which here in the US is quite impossible.

My driving instructor and other ones from people I've spoken to, all say that you are to assume everyone on the road is stupid and does not know the rules (British highway code in this case). Rather oddly you are also taught not to assume anything will go as you think it should and drive defensively.

Driving stupidity is universal and not limited to one country, i've done some stupid things myself, and seen plenty of stupid and dangerous driving in my 3 short years of driving.

This talk of american driving makes me wonder what it would be like if America had roundabouts like here in england.

My town has a lot of this merging crap as mentioned in the thread starter, one half mile stretch goes from 1 lane, to 3, then 4, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, then another half mile down the road goes to 1, 3, 2, 3, 2, 1 and this includes having roundabouts in them. You really do need to have your wits about you on this section, even if you traverse it frequently, had rather a few close calls i can tell you.

[MazdaMatt]

That's a silly road configuration! Go slap a city planner! I've noticed that FINALLY some of the subdivisions here (Canada) are replacing stop signs with 1-lane roundabouts (i guess people are too stupid for a simple yeild sign). It is incredible how many people nearly collide on this simple 1-lane roundabout in a subdivision. Of course, every house in this subdivision has 1 or two of [minivan, suv, pickup truck].

[Chiefdruid]

It's my personal belief that most drivers suffer from Cranial-Rectal Inversion.

The running joke amoung my friends is that I drive like a grandpa. Drive the speed limit, use signals consistantly, turn into same lane as turning out of, right turn on red after stop, etc. If that makes me a 'grandpa' driver then so be it... lol

[greenitup]

i almost had an accident the other week, the schoolbus (empty with crazy driver) tried to pass me after a stoplight with 2 lanes then they merge. I was accelerating and they were accelerating really fast and they almost drove me into the other lane and i wondered if it was my fault or theirs and i think it would have been theirs because they didn't get in the corresponding lane after the turn, they they had to merge with me and they would have hit me on the side.

[Tourigjm]

Originally Posted by BlackDeuceCoupe

Maybe we should start a "GetOffMyAss Project" here!

Everybody has the same problem...

Wanna be the president?

yeah, but i'd have to get off my lazy ass

[superchow]

I am not saying that there aren't any crazy drivers, or that Austrian traffic is all perfect. However, as a general rule, people will concentrate on their driving. Maybe its the smaller cars (less protected feeling), narrower roads, majority of manual transmissions or generally expensive nature of driving in Europe. In the US I have noticed that most people do not have an option - they must use the car to get around.

I see this as an opportunity in disguise: we can shape the traffic around us and make people safer.

[equation112]

part of the problem is that law enforcement here in the states never enforces the law equally. how often do you see a hummer pulled over? pickup truck? SUV in general? officers are insanely quick to target cars - especially ones that are somewhat customized like mine - wether they are breaking the law or not, while they let the hummer doing 90 whiz right by. honestly, our speed limits should be based on vehicle type much like the autobahn, where trucks are restricted to slower speeds than cars.

another option would be to take a page from the new nissan GTR - they have a built in database of japan (the JDM model has it) and a ECU-integrated GPS. if the GPS determines that the car is *not* on a nissan-approved track, the car is nerfed to a hard limit of 120mph or so. a more draconian measure would be to have a GPS database of all roads in a given country, and allow the GPS to govern the vehicle to the legal limit at all times.

only glitch to this is that it would never come to pass, as a system like this would effectively eliminate speeding tickets, and thus cost government a great deal of revenue.

[IndyIan]

I seem to have bad experiences with people driving expensive cars or trucks, they seem to think they get the right of way or cannot slow down for a second.
My last little adventure was in a parking lot with a 4 way stop. I got there and stopped first signalling to turn left, but an older guy with a nice big Lexus coming from the opposite way slowed to a near stop and then kept going as I starting going, he saw me but decided to ignore me. It was a very low speed game of chicken and I decided I wasn't going to yeild which seemed to really surprise the guy. He stopped but looked at me like I was crazy. Anyways, no harm done and in hindsight it wasn't super smart but maybe the guy is a bit more courteous at 4 way stops.

[superchow]

Originally Posted by equation112

...how often do you see a hummer pulled over? pickup truck? SUV in general?...

It was truly satisfying to see a Cadillac Escalade EXT (the Avalanche in drag thingy) getting pulled over in Oregon, near Pendleton. He (or she... let's not discriminate...) just passed me going at least 90 in a 65.

It felt good to know the law extended to the ones that "needed it". Sadly, about 15 minutes later the same Caddy whizzed by at about the same rate of speed like before.

Either we don't punish extreme speeding enough, or that truck must have had a speedometer malfunction.

[SVOboy]

Given his speeding he would be at fault. You can't judge pullouts times when people are exceeding the posted speed limits, so it's legally 100% their fault, unless something else is at play.

Glad you're okay though!