Why are we solving the MPG problem ?????

[iHero]

So -- I was just watching that mercedes EV death machine video when I realize -- why didn't you Euros & Brits solve our eco mod problem years ago???

They have been paying out the *#@#$% for gas aka petrol -- for years now.

Anyhow -- just a thought.

[MetroMPG]

I've wondered the same thing myself.

And I've come to the conclusion that because the people on the right side of the pond generally drive much smaller & more efficient vehicles, they figure they've already solved the problem.

Just a thought....

[GenKreton]

They have trains everywhere. I'm jealous

[RH77]

They have so many fuel-saving vehicles but...

The U.S. and Canada has:

-Strict regs on emissions, safety, etc.
-A horsepower addiction
-Fear of Diesel
-A bigger fear of small vehicles (false perception of size vs. safety)
-Longer stretches of high-speed operation

They filter over here in small numbers. We just have to be receptive to opening up our minds and free up the red tape...

RH77

[Bror Jace]

Yep ... what RH77 said ... but we Americans suffer more from the addictions to larger, more powerful vehicles than our brethren to the north.

Yes, the Europeans have always driven smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles that would look absolutely absurd on North American highways mixed in with our current traffic.

One thing though, I've seen the pictures of the late-model European Civic on this site with rear wheel skirts ... but they sure seem rare. I'm surprised they aren't standard features on nearly every European car made by now.

[azraelswrd]

Urban sprawl and the need for individual transport and decreased focus on mass transport all contribute to our (USA) problem or rather why we seem so far behind than other nations who have had to contend with inflated prices for so long.

But if Europe adopted stringent environmental regulations as those in CARB, I doubt many of their vehicles would be up to snuff.

As to the skirt issue, I bet it's down to cost vs gains. Is it worth the money and time to design and create a removable panel for the minute gains that could be made up with smarter driving? I recently had an argument with my parents over this (I had attached rear wheel skirts) and they kept saying "well nobody else has them so they must not work!!!" line of reasoning. I start countering with aerodynamic drag and it flies over their heads faster than any deflector.

[SuperTrooper]

The biggest difference between the US and Europe (and Canada) has been the amount of taxes used to artificially raise the price of fuel. European goverments use the money generated by fuel taxes to subsidize the public transportation systems. Euros only drive when they HAVE to. Fuel costs make rail travel an affordable alternative when going just about anywhere.

4 years ago we were part of a 3-way vacation house swap. We went to St. Martin, they went to Paris, and the Pariseans came to NH. They came a day early and I picked them up at the airport and helped them familiarize themselves with the house and the area. Artimus was truly overwhelmed with the size of my Honda Odyssey. He was stunned that it had almost 100K miles. He said that he'd been driving for 23 years and doubted that he had driven more than 100K km in that entire time even though he has always owned a car. The though of having to drive EVERYWHERE truly intimidated him, though they did manage to rack up almost 2K miles in the 2 weeks.

It's a different mindset.

The rest of the world should be thankful for this little upward blip in fuel prices, because it will be American consumers' demand for new fuel efficient technologies that has ultimately turned up the heat on the automakers to deliver. It is America that truly NEEDS the new technologies to come to market because automobiles ARE our critical primary transportation system. I doubt that's going to change in the next 100 years.

[groar]

Petrol price increase has been slow during decades, even if taxes are very important on gasoline and diesel. Depending on travel we chose the best way : car, bus, train, plane... These taxes are effectively used (at least in part) to build and improve public transportation and highways. As the system is more and more capitalistic, even public transportation has to be profitable, and usefulness isn't a parameter anymore. Added to recent fast petrol price increase, the MPG problem becomes predominant for more and more people.

As in the US, there is a lot of different situations. During 5 years, living in Paris, I drove 0 miles and I used the train to visit my family. Then I moved near Toulouse and used the bus daily, while I used the car during week-ends and to visit my family. Then I moved more far from Toulouse and the bus wasn't an option anymore and no train was near enough to be an option, so now I'm using my car everyday...

Some people are driving all day long, but I think European are driving less than American. Not only because public transportation may be more developed, but also because our countries are smaller and so are traveled distances.

About regs on emissions & safety, I don't know who (EU/US) has the stricter and comparing them would be difficult as there is different limitations and these are measured differently.

About the fact European cars are more fuel-efficient than in past is because the constructors had to resolve the emissions restrictions, at least during the last decade. Before that the diesel was cheaper because it had less taxes (this is always the case but now gasoline and diesel are roughly the same price) to help petrol companies to sell more diesel, so car constructors sold more diesel, emissions restrictions became stricter and car constructors made more fuel-efficient cars.

I just looked at honda.fr all the civic models but none has rear wheel skirts. Since a few weeks I'm looking at cars in the streets and I have seen none with rear wheel skirts and only a few new cars has partial grill block (C2 [IIRC] from Citroen are the most present). But more and more cars has the look of a prius (per ex. C4 from Citroen, some Honda, some Ford...).
EU do not have rear wheel skirt and partial block grill generalized because fuel efficiency wasn't a parameter when choosing a new car. Now this parameter begins to be important but this is certainly (at least in France) because we have eco-taxes based on CO2 emissions and because the less polluting cars are also the more efficient, so these one are more and more sold.

<grunt>why no french car constructor has an hybrid, and why do we have only the prius since last year, the civic hybrid since this year and no other hybrid sold in France ??? Ooops I'm forgetting the LPG has partial tax suppression since more than a decade... </grunt>

Since 4 years there is more and more automatic radars on French roads. Some people are always driving as fast as before, but a lot slowed down. They did it not to be safe, but to not get tickets and to keep points on their driving license... At the same time there has been a lot of pollution alerts, accompanied with temporary slower speed limitations. People has now associated speed with pollution.
Because there is now eco-taxes in France changing the cost of cars, people will associate consumption with pollution and the mentality will change durably.
I don't think petrol price fluctuation will change mentality. A few will change temporarily when price is high, but majority will quickly forget.

This is a durable change in my life that made me changed my mentality : the birth of my son

Denis.

[Bror Jace]

"As to the skirt issue, I bet it's down to cost vs gains. Is it worth the money and time to design and create a removable panel for the minute gains that could be made up with smarter driving?"

Smarter driving? Oh, azraelswrd, you crack me up!

I still think skirts are a factory accessory that would sell if they can show real MPG gains ... look at all the pour-in nonsense that is sold for engine sumps and gas tanks? How about doo-dads like the Tornado valve? Most of this doesn't work ... but it sells.

Show a gizmo people can purchase and stick on their cars (in this instance, a set of skirts) and people will buy it.

The downside is that a different set of skirts has to be designed for each vehicle ... pour in goo is a one-size-fits all product.

[SuperTrooper]

My dad's first Cadillac had wheel skirts.



Of course, it was easier to do then because the wheels were tucked further into the body. Modern design brings the wheels out almost even with the fenders, which makes skirt fabrication more difficult. Only Honda has chosen to make it a part of the design with the Insight.

[azraelswrd]

California (and the California Air Resource Board) has arguably some of the strictest air pollution/quality restrictions and if Gov. Schwarzennegger had his way, the state would be among the toughest in the world but I think the EPA said he was nuts and stopped him from forcing more efficient cars and stiffer emission regulations. Ironic coming from the man who bought his own fleet of Hummers (which he purportedly converted to biofuels)

It's one of the biggest reasons/excuses why many overseas vehicles cannot be driven in the USA -- they wouldn't pass the emissions limits.

[Unheard]

We did solve the MPG problem in Europe. We developed diesels into the very efficient quiet engines that can be installed into top of the range Audis Mercs BMWs and still return 40mpg. Diesel use to cost less than petrol but then as so many people started to use it (Diesel is about 50% of the market share in the UK) the Oil companied decided they could make some money and upped the price claiming it cost more to produce.

The Diesel on the continent is not low sulfur so in fact a Diesel will get better MPG there than in the UK all diesel in the uk has to be ultra clean.

The reason why we have not looked into electric so much is probably more to do with the dynamics of the countries plus the patents for the only viable batter technology is not held by European auto makers. Europe has not got huge amounts of land mass to install solar cell farms or retro fit every car parking space with charging points.

many people park on the street so trailing a power lead across the sidewalks is not really practical. the Uk always have a foot in the door somewhere in new technology
but we are more likley to use manufacturing skills for smaller parts that will enable
other larger companies to produce something.

European auto makers have always been engineers they stick to what they know and build on that its too much of a gamble to do anything else. Much of the revolutionary technology that the Europeans have invented such as in the second world war has been classified or bought up by huge oil companies, the US has a hold on over 900 patents for fuel vaporization systems. Not all would have come from the US. If fuel is heated to a certain temp it can be fractured into its individual carbons that can then be burnt. As
one of the effects of the carbon chains is the actual RON of the gas/petrol many of the patents include water injection to retard pre-ignition and act as the ron

Oil companies have been putting the breaks on what can actually be done, As soon as
something comes up that will hinder sales of oil the money is flashed and the pressure put on. Hence why US cars actually went backwards in FE not forward.

Honda has already got its fingers in all pies they are heavaly into robotics
they produce jets and a multatude of other things so the cars they make are more of an exploration into technology rather than direct insight into selling cars. Its to widen the outlook of all aspects of the company.

Japans a vested interest in FE technology other than diesel because as i understand the regs are even stricter on diesel than in the US and the attitude towards them is even more tarnished than the US

So in an answer we did solve the problem in the best way we could and the one that could actually be financially viable and rolled seamlessly with the current infrastructure

We have cars that will do 60mpg on the market that also have good proformance
with very high warranties and service intervals.

If the US has more vested interest in fuel efficiency there will be more incentive in european auto makers to produce hybrids / EVs. We are already building the tesla roadster in the Lotus' factory in Norfolk. There are many little electric cars that are
in low production but they cost much more and dont have the range or performance
that people have now come to expect form a car.

I have always said that the US will buy our diesel tecnolagy as a stop gap then we will
end up getting american EV technology back. It will be much more simple for the US to Quantum leap into a different technology. The american market does not expect such a high standard of road holding and maneuverability plus all in such a compact car.

Huge torque cars are an addiction that is ingrained into many Americans. An Electric motor can provide that and all without the need of a gearbox and accomplish high speeds so americas will be more willing to adopt it than Europe. We still sell many more manuals and it would take some convincing that people don't need to change gear

We would adopt compressed air engines much more readily than EVs

[metromizer]

I think it's all about motivation. If you have an alternative to the automobile, you use it if it's more attractive. I wonder if there is a resource to get national annual miles driven on a per capita basis. That may tell the tale. I suspect Americans, Canadians, and Aussie's drive the most, but that my perception (which could be way off base).

If I only put 2,000 miles per year on a car, FE wouldn't be much of a concern to me. ($5/gal gas and 2k annual miles = $770 with a 13mpg SUV versus $220 with a 45mpg Metro). Although the eco-friendly thing to do, my neighbor's new Prius doesn't make finanacial sense for grocery-getter and run to the post office duty.

Other than Boston and the light rail in the downtown area, the mass transit I've experienced in the US is almost painful to use.

Another thought; Everytime I see some add for 'tell the oil companies to shove it, running your car on water! Let me show you how' I have to laugh. Like our friends across the pond haven't had motivation to get much better FE, as if the only society with high fuel prices is here in the US. Please.

I also look to small turbo Diesel's as a short term stop-gap. Beyond that, I predict non-fossil fuel electricy to become more attractive as a result of breakthroughs in fussion-fission hybrid technology, making battery EV and hydrogen ICE powered vehicles the norm.

[OfficeLinebacker]

Originally Posted by azraelswrd

"well nobody else has them so they must not work!!!" line of reasoning.

Wow.

Nobody else trains like Michael Phelps, either.



(Sorry, I know they're your parents, and I have no right to criticize. It's the reasoning with which I take issue.)

[groar]

Originally Posted by Unheard

The Diesel on the continent is not low sulfur so in fact a Diesel will get better MPG there than in the UK all diesel in the uk has to be ultra clean.

It will be at 10ppm at 2009/01/01 all over Europe, except a few new European countries. 10ppm is in fact available since several years as new particle filters need it. Some north European countries have only low sulfur since very long time and have now 3-5ppm.

many people park on the street so trailing a power lead across the sidewalks is not really practical.

Wireless electricity ?

We would adopt compressed air engines much more readily than EVs

I want something nearly as practical as current ICE : range (>250 miles), distance between stations (<10 miles) and time to fill-up (< 5 minutes). For that last point with EV, the idea to swap your empty batteries with full one pleases me.

Denis.

[cfg83]

Bror Jace -

Originally Posted by Bror Jace

"As to the skirt issue, I bet it's down to cost vs gains. Is it worth the money and time to design and create a removable panel for the minute gains that could be made up with smarter driving?"

Smarter driving? Oh, azraelswrd, you crack me up!

I still think skirts are a factory accessory that would sell if they can show real MPG gains ... look at all the pour-in nonsense that is sold for engine sumps and gas tanks? How about doo-dads like the Tornado valve? Most of this doesn't work ... but it sells.

Show a gizmo people can purchase and stick on their cars (in this instance, a set of skirts) and people will buy it.

The downside is that a different set of skirts has to be designed for each vehicle ... pour in goo is a one-size-fits all product.

Egg-zactly. I also don't think wheel skirts are in fashion. You can stick in a Tornado Valve and who's gonna know? Wheel skirts are a statement. Even if you design them to be aesthetically pleasing like the Honda Insight, people still won't like them with excuses like "they're old-fashioned". That won't stop most people here, but it will stop others.

Belly pans, however, are totally doable because there is no aesthetic cost.

Idea: How about this? Metal belly pans for 4x4/SUVs that are designed to protect the catalytic converter from theft. Two for one!

CarloSW2

[iHero]

Along these lines -- why is BMW only now looking at adding a steam component to capture all the loss at the exhaust manifold? Did they not think they would recoup the cash overseas 10 years ago?