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Old 09-19-2011, 06:46 PM   #26 (permalink)
IamIan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
@Ian - Your argument works, but is based on the fact that someone else at the end of the pipe, wire or cable is ready to consume that energy.
not quiet ... let me try and explain.... sorry this post did get a bit longer than intended.

My statement was about what you pay for some amount of kwh of electrical energy... and how that varies from context to context ... RE is not always cheaper than the grid and it is not always more expensive than the grid for that same quantity of kwh of electrical energy... context matters.

Usage of that energy how , where, when , etc ... are all valid and important issues ... for determining a specific context ... which would be 100% in agreement with my previous statement.

The variation from one context to the next is not based on any unilateral assumption in 100% synchronized usage.

Even if some of the RE ( solar or whatever ) was wasted ... that does not necessarily guarantee anything one way or the other without still quantifying the specific context... how much was wasted or used , etc...

Context matters... it is not a black and white issue one way or the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
And that that pipe, wire or cable is inside a reasonable range to be able to use it - there is a limit to how far you can "transport" electricity. Otherwise it is wasted.
Transportation losses are a benefit to distributed RE intertie systems.

100% grid centralized power plants will have more transportation losses ... this issue is a negative for the centralized grid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
Unfortunately also at the times when Solar (and indeed Wind) are being productive the demand isn't there.
This goes back into context of the application again.

Last I checked Peak power demand for the utility grid was during daylight hours ... when the sun is providing energy for Solar types of RE... So I see it as there is significant demand that coincides beautifully with some forms of RE... and I don't agree with , "the demand isn't there".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
We could store it of course
Storing still goes back to the context of the application again.

Storing momentary surplus is not a issue for all application contexts of RE.

Not an issue for solar sized bellow the up swing surge the grid sees during the daylight hours.

Not an issue for hydro-electric ... which has built in storage.

etc.

Even if storage is needed for some specific application context ... that is not necessarily guaranteed to mean anything one way or the other.

When it is needed the storage just becomes part of the specifics of a applications context ... and weighs into the analysis of that context ... depending on the context it could still go either way , and be either more or less expensive than the grid for the same quantity of used kwh of electrical energy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
But these have limits in terms of the energy stored vs costs, and potential energy release vs the energy originally produced.
100% agree ... and sometimes in some contexts RE will be more expensive per unit of energy than the grid ... and in other contexts RE will be less expensive per unit of energy than the grid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
A conventional power station can be stoked up and added to the grid as and when the demand is needed. Even if you take into account the polution of this solution and the resources required, having something you can just pop-on when needed seems far more efficient that making too much of something and storing it and watch it decline until you decide you need it.
It might seem more efficient ... but depending on the context of a specific application ... it may or may not be more efficient.

More or less efficient ( while it is important ) is also a very different issue from more or less expensive for the same quantity of energy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
Argument - An idling power station does consume energy, but nuclear (at least) makes its own.
I doubt you intended it ... I just don't like that wording ... so this bit is mostly just a pet peeve of mine.

My 2 bits ... nuclear doesn't make it's own energy any more than a coal power plant makes it's own energy ... they both consume a fuel and operate at less than 100% efficiency ... Neither one makes energy... they convert it from one form to another at significantly less than 100% efficiency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
But when I check my power bill and find a 5-10% levy added to fund this so called "competitive" energy source, and when I read things like wind farms being paid not to produce anything then I wonder if that energy is really all that "free" in the first place.
Fair.

The government tax payer funded support for fossil fuels falls into the same argument... And I don't like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
The debate of course is where the 'free' part comes from and what we include in the costs of conventional (including nuclear) energy. Thats tetchy and starts arguments about politics, so I'm not going there.
Not my debate.

My debate was just the simple concept that :
Context matters.

It is not a 100% black and or white issue one way or the other as far as what it cost per unit of energy... In different contexts the grid is cheaper per kwh ... and in other contexts RE is cheaper per kwh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
I remain optimistic about renewables and would agree with an investment in fundamental research into how this can be achieved but again I object to people in the UK being forced to decide between food and heat/light just so someone can make a lot of money from an artificial levy and subsidy.
I'd go further ... myself.

I think the government has done its part ... neither the fossil fuel industry nor the RE industry need the crutch anymore... let them both stand on their own.

The only role I still see the government should be playing is in the appropriate regulations ... worker rights, building codes, illegal discrimination , pollution, truth in advertising , consumer right to know, etc ... types things.
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