Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > DIY / How-to
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-18-2019, 01:54 AM   #1 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: South Africa
Posts: 39
Thanks: 2
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Air-take verses direct hho injection into manifold

Air intake or PCV injection:

My question to think about is this - most information tends towards air intake injection .I have an issue with this due to the PCV system also drawing air from the air-intake .The science behind the mixing of hydrogen and oxygen with crank gases is possibly endless and not the real question .

In my case I have a modified intake with a performance Cone filter directly onto the throttle body .
The HHO is currently injecting into the center of the cone via a chassis through fitting .

During de-acceleration and long downhills at low speed as well as any other time the foot is off the pedal - what will happen - the butterfly closes and only a small portion of air is actually pulled into the manifold.I assume at this stage the excess hho will be lost to vent to atmosphere.

So the question would be this - would placing the hho into the manifold be more beneficial and provide better gains as it is constantly being used in opposed to air-filter intake where possibly only a portion is actually used.

Anyone done a more scientific look into this one .

My PCV is venting to atmosphere so I do not have PCV injection option - however I will be adding a fixed connection in place of the PCV valve to inject direct in future to make my own observations .

Thanks
Bradley

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 01-18-2019, 02:26 AM   #2 (permalink)
Master EcoWalker
 
RedDevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Nieuwegein, the Netherlands
Posts: 3,998

Red Devil - '11 Honda Insight Elegance
Team Honda
90 day: 47.72 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,711
Thanked 2,245 Times in 1,454 Posts
I think the majority opinion here is that HHO is a synonym of scam.
It poses no benefit at all as there's no way to overcome the energy lost in generating it.

Some research suggests minute amounts of hydrogen gas can have a disproportionally large gain in some very specific conditions (IIRC purified octane in a 30:1 compression rate diesel type engine), but these conditions are not present in automotive engines.

Nor do performance air intakes generate any economy benefit at all, as the engine would run at reduced throttle anyway. The less restriction the air filter provides, the more the throttle valve will close for the same intake pressure at the cylinder head.

As for excess HHO venting out: even if the throttle valve closes, it will let several liters per second by. If you have instrumentation that shows RPM and air intake pressure you can calculate how much.
For instance, my Insight has a 1339 CC engine. If it idles at 1000 RPM it pulls 500 times its displacement in a minute (it is 4 stroke after all). The intake pressure typically drops 80% idling, so that would be equivalent to 100 times its displacement a minute, 134 liter per minute, 2.23 liter per second.
Your HHO generator will produce only a minute fraction of that amount, which should all get sucked into the air intake even when decelerating or idling. I expect no effect to be noticeable.

That said, there's nothing wrong with trying things out.
The best way to test the effectiveness, or lack thereof, is by doing a series of ABA test in constant conditions (warm engine, no traffic, low wind, constant temperature, same route).
__________________
2011 Honda Insight + HID, LEDs, tiny PV panel, extra brake pad return springs, neutral wheel alignment, 44/42 PSI (air), PHEV light (inop), tightened wheel nut.
lifetime FE over 0.2 Gmeter or 0.13 Mmile.


For confirmation go to people just like you.
For education go to people unlike yourself.
  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RedDevil For This Useful Post:
bradlington (01-18-2019), niky (01-18-2019)
Old 01-18-2019, 03:40 AM   #3 (permalink)
Corporate imperialist
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 11,175

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 141.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 269
Thanked 3,522 Times in 2,796 Posts
The only time a performance air intake will increase fuel economy is if it's on a diesel.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2019, 07:34 AM   #4 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Philippines
Posts: 2,173
Thanks: 1,739
Thanked 589 Times in 401 Posts
Whenever a performance intake increases gasoline economy, it's likely an accidental side effect of it changing the reading at the mass airflow sensor and causing the engine to run slightly leaner.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2019, 08:18 PM   #5 (permalink)
Full sized hybrid.
 
Isaac Zackary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Colorado
Posts: 602

Suzy - '13 Toyota Avalon Hybrid XLE
90 day: 37.18 mpg (US)
Thanks: 369
Thanked 108 Times in 84 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
The only time a performance air intake will increase fuel economy is if it's on a diesel.
This is basically true.

On a gasoline engine most of the time you are running around with the intake choked off by the throttle plate. Making a better intake on a gasoline engine will do absolutely nothing for fuel mileage, unless you drive everywhere at full throttle.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2019, 08:12 AM   #6 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
teoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Istanbul
Posts: 1,245

A3 - '12 Audi A3
Thanks: 65
Thanked 225 Times in 186 Posts
So maybe beneficial for pulse and gliders.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to teoman For This Useful Post:
Isaac Zackary (02-04-2019)
Old 02-02-2019, 10:51 PM   #7 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 12,548
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,622 Times in 1,447 Posts
Did you notice any actual fuel-efficiency improvement with HHO? BTW many so-called HHO kits in fact only pour steam to the intake. Probably water injection would make more sense.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2019, 01:08 AM   #8 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Philippines
Posts: 2,173
Thanks: 1,739
Thanked 589 Times in 401 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr View Post
Did you notice any actual fuel-efficiency improvement with HHO? BTW many so-called HHO kits in fact only pour steam to the intake. Probably water injection would make more sense.
Properly fitted, water injection saves fuel on diesels. But I don't think you can guarantee fuel savings on ALL diesels without at least some ECU tweaking.

On gasoline, it might help on turbo cars, but from what I've seen, the effects on economy gasoline engines is minimal... usually a nominal power bump, if any, and at a level that doesn't justify the price of installation.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2019, 07:44 PM   #9 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 12,548
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,622 Times in 1,447 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by niky View Post
Properly fitted, water injection saves fuel on diesels. But I don't think you can guarantee fuel savings on ALL diesels without at least some ECU tweaking.
Even in a mechanically-governed Diesel engine, some higher amount of moisture suspended in the air already leads to some enhancement to the efficiency.


Quote:
On gasoline, it might help on turbo cars, but from what I've seen, the effects on economy gasoline engines is minimal... usually a nominal power bump, if any, and at a level that doesn't justify the price of installation.
With the EFI trimming the fuel to keep power and torque figures at the stock parameters, the cooling of combustion chambers provided by that small amount of water allows a slightly leaner burn even in a naturally-aspirated gasser with port injection.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2019, 05:44 PM   #10 (permalink)
Full sized hybrid.
 
Isaac Zackary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Colorado
Posts: 602

Suzy - '13 Toyota Avalon Hybrid XLE
90 day: 37.18 mpg (US)
Thanks: 369
Thanked 108 Times in 84 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by teoman View Post
So maybe beneficial for pulse and gliders.
Yes. The ideal gasoline engine, or even diesel engine for that matter, would have only one throttle position. Then you pulse and glide it. Or figure an efficient way to store and then apply it's pulsed energy. Some hydraulic pumps and motors and hydraulic accumulators are over 98% efficient.

But even then, just widening the intake or exhaust doesn't mean better efficiency. Everything in the intake and exhaust is pulsing with each intake and exhaust stroke. Harmonics become much more important here, which is affected greatly by runner diameters and lengths as well as resonate chamber designs. In other words, widening things can be just as bad as making them more narrow. And using the harmonics with finely tuned intakes and exhaust systems to get more air and fuel and exhaust in and out of the cylinders doesn't always equate to better fuel efficiency either.

I had stock exhaust and intake on my 1985 VW Golf diesel which the exhaust was less than 2 inches in diameter IIRC, and I got as much as 60mpg in it.

__________________
  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com