The climate change consensus extends beyond climate scientists

[basjoos]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

Nothing to do with temperature,

Americans generally no longer consume "fridgid weather" oranges, the coldest weather a sweet orange can tolerate is 5 F but it's full of seeds, (one common variety is Changa after winterizing) tarter more bitter varieties can tolerate even colder, historically people would eat these varieties but now big, seedless sweet and easy to peel are expected.

Those types of oranges aren't cold ready.

Most of the "frigid weather" citrus varieties were introduced in the early 1900's after the severe cold snap of 1899. The cold snap of 1899 caused ice floes to flow out of the mouth of the Mississippi, brought subzero (F) temperatures to Florida, and frosts to Cuba. It wiped out citrus along the northern tier of citrus cultivation in the southeast United States. At the time Mark Twain was making his trip down the Mississippi described in his book, sweet oranges (introduced by the spanish in the 1500's) were commonly grown in Louisiana and Mississippi, mandarins were introduced in the late 1840's and would have been a fairly new crop in the region. Satsuma tangerines, the cold hardiest of the highly edible citrus, was introduced to the gulf coast in the late 1870's and wouldn't have been seen by Twain. The cold hardiest sweet oranges, such as Hamlin, are only cold hardy into the upper 20's F.

Most of the extremely cold hardy barely edible citrus like Changsha manderin, Yuzu, and Ishang lemon were introduced in the early 1900's. Also many Poncirus crosses with sweet orange, grapefruit, and manderins (citrange, citrumelo, citrandarin) were made at this time in the search for a highly edible cold hardy citrus.

[basjoos]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Planting zones have moved north - like 600-800 miles.

Miami, Florida is located less than 600 miles south of my location in upstate South Carolina. The fall/winter/spring temperatures around here are nowhere near the zone 10 conditions experienced in Miami, so I don't think conditions are ready for me to start planting coconuts here yet. An 800 mile shift north would give me Cuban planting zones, an even more unlikely scenario although, if I were living here 8 million years ago, that is the climate that I would have. 8 million years ago the local climate here was tropical, the elevation above sea would have been 200 feet and the seashore was only 80 miles away. The local red clay is an indicator of a past tropical climate, as is the fossil record. Spring tree bud break is about 1 week earlier than it was in the 1970's, but winter low temperatures have changed little, if at all. The northern range limits for Spanish moss and alligators are 90 miles to the south of here. If winter temps were getting milder, I would expect to start seeing Spanish moss growing in my trees and alligators moving into my lake. So far I have seen neither.

[Fat Charlie]

Moss doesn't move as fast as most other things.

[NeilBlanchard]

[basjoos]

Originally Posted by Fat Charlie

Moss doesn't move as fast as most other things.

Spanish moss is carried around by birds to use as nesting material, so it gets around. Spanish moss seed is dust like and is easily carried by the wind.

[basjoos]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Those two plant hardiness maps are not directly comparable. They were compiled by two different organizations (USDA and National Arbor Day Foundation) who likely used different databases and statistical analyses to get their results. The 1990 map is compiled from 13 years (1974 to 1986) worth of data, the Arbor Day map from 18 years (1980 to 1997) worth of data. Both of these are just a blink in time and wouldn't capture any normal long term variations in the climate. For that you would need at least a couple of centuries of data to make a map from. A better indicator of what is normal climate for a region is to look at the cold and heat tolerances of plants native to a region, especially of the long lived one's.

That "zone changes in the next 30 years" map isn't worth the paper it is printed on considering all of the variables it can't anticipate such as changes in solar activity, volcanic eruptions, etc. Back in the 1980's and 1990's they were predicting that by this time there would be an ice-free north pole and a noticeable increase in sea level, neither of which have happened yet.

[oil pan 4]

I would rater see it warming up then see it getting colder.

[freebeard]

That "zone changes in the next 30 years" map isn't worth the paper it is printed on considering all of the variables it can't anticipate such as changes in solar activity, volcanic eruptions, etc.

You can hardly fault them for not factoring in things that haven't happened yet.

What's incredible today is the observation and recording of data we've never had before (lately) about the interstellar environment, the sun and fine-grained looks at the Earth's atmosphere.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Suspicious0bservers/videos

https://earth.nullschool.net/about.html

Click on Earth to get the map and then click on Earth in the lower left to choose Time (in 3 hour blocks), Altitude, Overlay and Projection. Here's the Misery Index on a Waterman Projection:

https://earth.nullschool.net/#curren...-97.411,38.424

I want Kizuna Ai as a weather girl.

Here's a earth.nullschool.net Youtube channel

Also, you mentioned earthquakes; http://www.QuakeWatch.net.

[NeilBlanchard]

What is the PATTERN of the data trend? Different data sources that indicate the same basic thing - are better than just one data set.

[NeilBlanchard]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

I would rater see it warming up then see it getting colder.

I would rather it to stay like it was before 1850.