d16, b16, d17 efficiency comparisons? looking to buy newer civic - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum

sevenspeed · 08-17-2010, 09:47 PM

I'm looking for a hatchback Honda with 5spd and want to know the difference in actual mileage between the different motors. The D16 at 108hp is enough for me but wonder how the 2 stage vtec d16 or b16 comapres as well as the newer d17 with 3 stage vtec. They have more power but because they have a low and high rpm cam profile and may also run less valves I'm trying to find out how they compare. I don't know how to read cam profiles and that would be the big difference.
I like the older ones an my 89 is great but being in Michigan rust is an issue. So a newer car would be better but then your into the higher powered motors. Also the cars look bigger and probably heavier. Is there a big difference in mileage between 99 and 02 generations? Also do the hatches do better because of aerodynamics? I like the style and room better but sedans and coupes are much easier to find especially since I don't want an automatic at all.
I get better mileage then the Fit claims without doing anything other then mildly accelerating and coasting a bit before a stop. So I don't find the EPA ratings to mean much.

Clev · 08-17-2010, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sevenspeed

I like the older ones an my 89 is great but being in Michigan rust is an issue.

Come pick one up in NV, AZ or NM. You can pick up an '89 over here and still be able to remove exhaust bolts with having to get out the Easy-Out kit. :-)

sevenspeed · 08-17-2010, 10:37 PM

Are they rust free still? Didn't think there would be that much of a difference. There is a 96 with under 100k on it and its rusted enough that the rear bumper isn't connected by the wheels anymore, don't know what the underneath is like.
I still think I'll get newer like 96 or higher since it's easier to modify the tuning I think and less mileage. And easier to get parts. Here an 02 goes for half of what a brand new one costs.
I'm not against buying one in another state but other then ebay wouldn't know how to find one since craigslist is limited in it's search capabilities. Also would be a long trip if it turns out it had too many problems. Some people don't know any better and have good intentions. Looked at a Suzuki Sidekick once that they said ran great with 200,000 miles on it but when I went to check it out the oil was like pitch black and gritty so something was going on but he didn't know, had just gotten it recently and was nice but made me leary of buying something I can't inspect first like ebay cars.

Clev · 08-18-2010, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sevenspeed

Are they rust free still? Didn't think there would be that much of a difference.

Here in CA they use cinder instead of salt on snowy roads. My '90 Accord has 317,000 miles. The original parts of the exhaust system still have only a little surface rust, and a 10-year-old crease in the rear decklid also has only a bit of surface rust. Cars near the coast are a bit worse, but I've never seen the kind of rust-through I've seen back east.

sevenspeed · 08-18-2010, 06:32 AM

Wow, makes me want to move but my Husky wouldn't like it :\ I think here they use a mix of dirt and salt maybe funded by the big 3 to make cars rust asap? Just kidding on the conspiracy part.
I knew cars rusted worse here but thought they still rusted more then that.
No matter what I end up with I'm still curious as to the efficiency of the different motors. do they WOT for EPA highway testing? I quick search on Honda Fit showed much better then 28 city 33 highway. And my 89 Si only gets 30 highway according to them.... Worst I've gotten is 32 in the winter for a whole tank with work only being 6 miles away so plenty of driving spent not warmed up. I don't hypermile or pump up the tires (had one blow when hit a pothole plus harder on suspension,) just coast before stops and accelerate gently.

some_other_dave · 08-18-2010, 07:12 PM

In general, newer == better FE, all other things being equal. The B16 motors make about 110 lb-ft of torque, but it's at a higher RPM than the peak of 99 lb-ft for our motors. (Don't remember the RPMs, sorry!) When the B16 is babied (a rare occasion), most people report slightly better MPG than with the D16 motor.

The newer D17 should be capable of rather better.

Note that gearing has a sizeable effect on fuel economy With our Si trans, we are spinning 3000 RPM at 60 MPH. The cable-shifted trans from the early B18 Integra LS is geared taller, so it will drop your cruising RPM and improve FE. Ditto just about any other D-series transmission; our Si is geared about as low as a D-series trans gets.

-soD

NachtRitter · 08-18-2010, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sevenspeed

I'm not against buying one in another state but other then ebay wouldn't know how to find one since craigslist is limited in it's search capabilities. Also would be a long trip if it turns out it had too many problems.

Ya, definitely agree with being cautious of distant purchases... I've been lucky, but that's not always the case. Sometimes, brand-specific forums can be a great help too. For instance, the tdiclub.com forum has a list of trusted mechanics that know exactly what to look for on a used VW TDI that you can call upon whether the car is local or not... for a fee, of course but well worth it.

For non-local craigslist searches, try out SearchTempest - The EASY way to search Craigslist... a very nice craigslist aggregator (and includes ebay results too).

sevenspeed · 08-18-2010, 11:00 PM

Thanks, I'll try that Cl searcher and never thought of paying a fee to have a mechanic look at it for me.
Do newercars really get better mpg? They should but appears most newer cars have quite a bit more horsepower and I do better then the EPA ratings for the Fit.
That's the other thing with taller gearing I would have to use significantly more throttle to accelerateand don't do as much highway driving as backroads and short trips and also dont go over 70mph so maybe the shorter tranny is better? Before headers and exhaust I got 34mpg average no pulse and glide or engine kill, just sensible driving. Have only put 80 miles on since fixing a fuel leak and exhaust install so don't know the current mpg yet.

some_other_dave · 08-19-2010, 12:41 PM

If all other things are equal, the newer engines should give you better FE than the older ones. Those "all other things" include vehicle weight, CdA, vehicle size, tire sizes, and so on. Little or none of which actually stays the same over time in automotive design, taking the whole car into account.

But just regarding the engine, in general newer is more efficient than older. And that becomes a more valid comparison if you're talking about engine swaps, where you're examining different engines in one chassis.

Your current Si transmission really sucks for FE. Even if you never go over 70 MPH. (Trust me on this one, I have the same drivetrain in my CRX!) Taller gearing will help your FE. Most engines are more efficient at 2000 RPM than at 3000, and I'd be quite surprised if there were any street car engines that were most efficient at 3500 RPM.

-soD

sevenspeed · 08-19-2010, 07:29 PM

Thanks, I didn't know 1000 rpm's made that much of a difference. As for the all things being equal does that include horespower? Like can a v-tec motor get more or equal mileage in the same car then a non-vtec if driven the same? And the new motors are 1.7L with v-tec but forgot the horespower rating.
And yeah, the Civics seem to have gotten much bigger or Americanized :P
Was looking at the Fit but that engine is so fancy I dunno. Like having the exhaust manifold integrated into the cylinder head negates putting on a header but maybe it flows as well? Also I like to be able to work on it myself and have room to do so. If rust wasn't an issue I'd go for a 96-99 hatchback.