E85 in a non flex-fuel vehicle

[jazzie604]

Originally Posted by thefirebuilds

1. ethanol is harsher on rubber gas lines.

2. Ethanol is more prone to explosive issues

3. some groups are claiming e85 takes more to farm and convert in diesel then it actually produces. I find this unlikely, but can anyone offer some real evidence one way or the other?

E85 vehicles mitigate these issues with different gas lines (poly?) and fuel pumps with spark arrestors built in. In order to take full advantage of e85 based fuel the vehicles engine should have sufficient compression.

That said, i think the likliehood of a catastrophic failure is ultimately very low, and I suspect engine performance would drop off so significantly to most folks they wouldn't ever push this high of a ratio in. Most fuels in my neck of the woods have a high (15% or less) amount of ethanol in the regular petroleum anyway.

A couple additions, on the pro side. I have heard that ethanol "burns cleaner" and will leave less carbon deposit in the engine, any truth?

1. methanol is very corrosive on rubber and steel, though anecdotal evidence shows most "high pressure fuel lines" produced today have sufficient linings to resist wear from Ethanol.

2. I havent heard this, though it may be related to the evaporative quality of alcohol over gasoline.

3. using corn stock, when E85 first came around, it was very expensive because the process was not thoroughly designed. The use of grasses and sugar cane, woodstock, and other sources, along with an increase of production capacity, can allow for costs to drop if demand would stay up(read as gas staying in the 3.50+ range).




Straight E85 should require roughly 30% more fuel than gasoline under equivolent rpm/load conditions. So for the crazies on this site(said with love, I promise) who never take their engine load over 50%, usually have enough capacity in their stock fuel system to run the car, even if it is running slightly lean at times. FYI: most OBD2 computers have a 20-30% range of +/- fuel compensation that is automatically adjusted without setting a fault code. Considering a 50/50 mixture may only require 15% more fuel under light load conditions, then it makes sense that some people will be able to mix without severe problems. The fact is those people probably arent looking at fuel trims and watching the fuel mixture under heavier load conditions.

To be a vehicle manufacturer that has to warranty vehicles that are capable of running any mixture you want, there really is thousands of dollars in modifications that should be done to make sure some dick with lawyer doesnt sue them when problems arise. As an end user who doesnt expect a car to run WOT in -15*F and idle smoothly in 115*F arizona desert, then we can live with the limitations of a system that kind of works. FYI: thats what all these fly by night rip off artists are selling without telling you. Yes they can make your car run on E85, but it doesnt run right in all conditions at all times, like is expected from the average joe.

[salamlaith]

guys, i have been using 50/50 E85/Regular Gas in my corolla 95 for 3 mounths so far, with no problem
corolla 95 with 1.8 engin should do 30/g highway 28/city

guys belive me that 10g of that mixture, is making at least 295 mil in my corolla, 90% highway 10% city, many times i drive fast, some times over 80/H and some times i turn on A/C and i still get about 295 mil every time i put 10 gallons from that mixture in my car.

[Arctic Fox]

I somehow missed this one 3.5 years ago...

Originally Posted by thefirebuilds

2. Ethanol is more prone to explosive issues

Explosive, huh?

What is your source for that information?

[Frank Lee]

When it goes in the cylinder, that's what I want it to do.

[drmiller100]

Originally Posted by salamlaith

guys, i have been using 50/50 E85/Regular Gas in my corolla 95 for 3 mounths so far, with no problem
corolla 95 with 1.8 engin should do 30/g highway 28/city

guys belive me that 10g of that mixture, is making at least 295 mil in my corolla, 90% highway 10% city, many times i drive fast, some times over 80/H and some times i turn on A/C and i still get about 295 mil every time i put 10 gallons from that mixture in my car.

I have ran 50/50 in a LOT of different hondas from the 90's. All seem to run very well.

I have run as much as 90 percent E85. When you run "too much" the car coughs, loses power, acts crabby, and check engine light comes on. When this happens, I whip by the nearest gas station and throw 5 bucks of regular gasoline in - problem solved!

[shovel]

Just to throw my anecdote in here, I've been running a stock MY2002 Grand Cherokee Overland (4.7L "high output" engine) on E85 for ~4500 miles so far, with no ill effects apparent. It doesn't appear to run out of fuel bandwidth at WOT/onramp merging/hills, and doesn't illuminate the check engine light.

Plus it smells a bit like vodka when I cold start & then reverse into my exhaust cloud. Maybe I should throw a few lime peels into the tailpipe...

[Allch Chcar]

Corrosion is like rust, it's a slow process, so the concern is longevity not sudden catastrophic failure.

There isn't any approval process for parts to be considered safe for E85 use. But there is a list of known compatible materials with Ethanol and Gasoline. Rubber, Mild steel, and certain plastics are not compatible with Ethanol. Parts with these components exposed to fuel without a protective coating will fail earlier. They have to use something compatible or a sacrificial coating that is safe. For example with aluminum they use a layer of zinc. To make Stainless steel they dip it in acid. There are some plastics that are safe though, like proprietary Viton.

Let me know if I missed something.

Originally Posted by johnpr

according to this article on wikipedia it is 105
Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Just so people don't get the wrong idea from this old thread. The AKI octane is about 95.6 for E50 and 95.8 for E85. It depends on what grade of Gasoline they use for blending too.

Investigation of Knock Limited Compression Ratio
of Ethanol Gasoline Blends. Scroll down to Table 2.

Actual engine performance is closer to C16 from what I understand.

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by shovel

Plus it smells a bit like vodka when I cold start & then reverse into my exhaust cloud. Maybe I should throw a few lime peels into the tailpipe...

Park the other way around while your engine is warm ...

[jtbo]

Originally Posted by Krieg

E85 has anywhere from 100 to 105 octane. Thus, you could easily build an engine with a very high compression ratio, which would raise the efficiency of the engine greatly.

The EPA did a study where they converted a Volkswagen TDI diesel engine to run on E85. They replaced the diesel fuel injectors with spark plugs, and used conventional port fuel injection. The TDI has 19.5:1 compression ration, and that was unchanged. They got upwards of 40% efficiency, same as a diesel.

Sadly, because E85 pumps are so rare, you can't buy an E85 only engine. A flex fuel vehicle has to be able to run on gas, so that precludes a very high compression ratio. Without that increased efficiency, a FFV running on gas gets crappy mileage, because ethanol has less energy that gas.

I would like to see some links to that study.

Reason is that I got silly idea to slap turbo on my Volvo 240 diesel, that is 6 cylinder 2.4l diesel motor without turbo, there is only few bits that I would need to find and perhaps reduce compression. We have RE85 here, which is made from garbage, same as E85 but it is more for my liking as it is made from garbage.

So if I understood correctly, that would made something relatively close to 2.4l 6 cylinder gasoline turbo engine, but with lower RE85 consumption (consumption relatively close to diesel) that what that would use gasoline and have better or similar power output than with diesel?

[Frank Lee]

You don't reduce compression when turboing a diesel... that I know of anyway. That's common practice for gassers.