GM: Won't let "green car stuff" get out of hand

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by robchalmers

...in the 60/70s we put our fingers in our ears and kept making crap- even when the Germans and Japanese took over we still screwed it up LEARN FROM US change, and other peoples ideas can be good!

Huh? In the '50s and '60s the British built the best cars in the world - MG, Austin-Healey, Sunbeam, Triumph, Jaguar... Sure, the reliability could have been improved (All Hail, Lucas, Lord of Darkness!), but they were no worse than American cars of the period. The problem is not that you guys didn't change, but that you changed the wrong things. You took out the single quality that sold those cars, the fact that they were an incredible amount of fun to drive (which American cars never had), and now all you have left is Lotus.

[Frank Lee]

It appears this thread is becoming irrational.

Just as irrational as the consumer I love to ridicule.

james, your post #41 is complete crap. Evidently you never had contact with any of the **** the Brits shipped over here. There is a good reason their industry dwindled to almost nothing, and it ain't political.

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by The Atomic Ass

They'll buy vehicles that have more power and better economy than the competitors, assuming they don't have anything against GM specifically.

If it actually does have more power, better econ, and can be sold at competitive prices, that may be...

[tasdrouille]

The sad fact probably is that GM is not able to make money out of the green cars for two reasons.

First, there's not enough volume in that segment and there's a premium associated with the design and components of such a car.

Second, that 375 hp Dodge Challenger is intrinsically a much easier sell than an hybrid simply because it fulfills more basic needs than the hybrid. Remember Maslow's needs hierarchy? Well being green sits right at the top. So if you're the average Joe, unless your safety level is threatened by high gas prices, deep down inside you want the Challenger.

So, in the short term, green can only be profitable when gas prices are high. In the long term though, green's the only way to go as people will see their physiological level attacked.

[evolutionmovement]

Small cars are also usually very short on profits vs. big cars—never mind high-tech small cars—another reason cash poor companies like GM don't want to focus on them.

WARNING: VW RANT BELOW

Those American car design features you list are all over 30 years ago. The VW with the very popular obviously bad oil pickup design on the 1.8T is about 10 years old (they finally stopped making the POS engine for a 2.0T a couple years ago. I've known personally 5 that have lunched between 20-60k miles. The issue is the poor positioning and size of the oil pickup tube which clogs easily and starves the engine, often after an oil change). VW tried to screw the 20k mile guy as well, claiming infrequent oil changes (which wasn't true, but also a dodge on their part). I beat my cars and change my oil every 10k and my 2.2 Subaru looked almost new with 250k miles. Also the 2.0 N/A of the same era had major issues, the wiring is circuit-board gauge and attached to substandard material unable to take underhood heat (2 year old cars with headlight connectors that crumble in the hand—big surprise I don't think I've ever seen a 6 month or older one with all its lights working), every other kind of electrical issue, cooling systems are undersized, and the engineering a joke (try just changing a taillight on a New Beetle). They also purposely make them so that they are as time consuming as possible to fix. 10 hours labor for an alternator (that died at an unacceptable 55k miles—250k in the Subaru and a 15 minute job) located top front on an engine? Yes, because a special "superior German engineered" fastener is used (vs. a simple hex bolt or even an Allen or Torx) and located such that the radiator, shrouding, headlights, etc. need to be removed (and I think some other things). How about a timing belt on an Audi A6 (S6, whichever garbage it was) that requires the entire front end to be removed—the bumper beam actually has a friggin' hinge on one side to swing it away for access to the front of the engine!). I refuse to even look at them anymore (thank God I don't work on cars for money anymore), but I'm sure they've gotten no better in the last 4 years. Believe me, I could go on.

I've also worked on American cars and, while they seem slapped together at the last minute and generally built to a price, there is nothing to compare to the outright sadism of VW (who save their only quality components for the interior). Hitler's revenge. Their diesels could be mechanically reliable as I never worked on one, but they'd still be handicapped by their cheap electrical systems and evil engineers. We chased out the French makes, the only Italians left are exotics, and the British are a selection of premium makes (unless you count the German-British Mini). What I wouldn't give for VW to be gone (or now that I don't have to work on them for money, at least to have friends who listen to me and don't have to learn the hard way).

[cfg83]

evolutionmovement -

Originally Posted by evolutionmovement

...

Not to keep beating the point (VW—God I hate them so much!), but I think the European cars in their home markets are probably far more reliable than when they arrive in the US. ...

I'm just gonna repeat what I read on forums when we were researching a new Golf GTI for my wife. The main complaint I read was that the Golf would sit in the shop for a month waiting for a replacement part. I think VWs like to be "close to home" in Germany. Ha ha, home is where the parts are.

CarloSW2

[tasdrouille]

VWs have been good to me since I've been 16 yo. But maybe it's just a diesel thing.

And if you are complaining about the "retarded" parts cost, well maybe you are not bright enough to get away from the dealer. There are other very reasonably priced sources for OEM parts.

VW is known to bleed suckers dry. If all you need is a $100 turbo actuator, you'll get a whole $1000 turbo/manifold assembly. If all you need is a couple bucks worth of seals and an hour of time, you'll get a brand spanking new $2000 injection pump. And you can always count on a dealer to screw a timing belt job!

[The Atomic Ass]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

If it actually does have more power, better econ, and can be sold at competitive prices, that may be...

Did I mention that if the union did not agree to a DRASTIC restructuring I would simply toss them out on their Ass?

Cost would definitely become competitive.

[instarx]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Huh? In the '50s and '60s the British built the best cars in the world - MG, Austin-Healey, Sunbeam, Triumph, Jaguar... Sure, the reliability could have been improved, but they were no worse than American cars of the period.

"Huh", is right. You clearly don't live on the same planet I do.

[orange4boy]

I would like to add I'm not picking on US Americans to the exclusion of the rest of NA regarding marketing and PR. The article is talking about the Big 3 bailout and Lutz which is a US issue. (although Canada did add it's 10 cents to the bailout.)

I may be picking on GM, but let's face it they went bankrupt, not VW. And for the record, I'm not a fan european cars in general. I wish we had more of their diesels here though.

Large cars have always been preferable to the majority—they innately appeal to the fear and or lack of control people feel over their lives.

This is a vast generalization and oversimplification! People buy many different size cars for many different reasons. You hear that "gravitate towards large vehicles" statement all the time coming from "industry experts" (people paid to say the right thing) as though there is some invisible force compelling people. It may be one of the reasons someone buys a large vehicle but there are literally hundreds of criteria any individual uses to decide which vehicle to buy. This is a meme designed by public relations firms to give car companies an excuse to keep pushing these mammoths at us. Even Joe six pack who wants his 440 Hemi Challenger, I'm sure, would be happy if his mileage were better so he could afford more six packs.

Here's a study by the Brookings Institute from 2004.

Kenneth E. Train, Clifford Winston, U.C. Berkeley, Brookings Institution

http://www.econ.yale.edu/seminars/ap...ain-041104.pdf

Choice excerpt:

American industry has received various kinds of trade protection for more than two decades ostensibly to help it “retool” and has benefited from robust macroeconomic expansions during the 1980s and 1990s, it continues to lag behind foreign competitorswhen it comes to producing a vehicle of quality and value. It is particularly noteworthy that the loss of the American industry’s market share can be explained by changes in the basic attributes—price, fuel consumption, horsepower, and so on—that are included in our model, rather than subtle attributes such as styling and various options.

Conclusion:

Concerns about the competitiveness of the U.S. automobile industry developed in the early 1980s when Chrysler needed a bailout from the federal government to avoidfinancial collapse and Ford and General Motors suffered large losses. Since then, the profitability of the domestic industry has fluctuated while its market share has steadily declined. Investors in the stock market, who are the most experienced and crediblesoothsayers of an industry’s future, envision that difficult times lie ahead for Ford, General Motors, and Daimler-Chrysler as the sum of their current market capitalization is less than half the combined market capitalization of Honda, Toyota, and Nissan and less than Toyota’s market capitalization alone. Toyota’s consistent profits have allowed it to invest in environmental technologies, like hybrid engine systems, and to take risks, like starting a youth-focused brand, Scion, thereby increasing pressure on other automakers.

We have applied recent econometric advances to analyze the vehicle choices of American consumers and found that the U.S. automakers’ loss in market share during the past decade can be explained almost entirely by the difference in the basic attributes that measure the quality and value of their vehicles and foreign automakers’ vehicles. Recent efforts by U.S. firms to offset this disadvantage by offering much larger incentives than foreign automakers offer have not met with much success. The only way that the U.S. industry can stop its decline is to start building better cars than its foreign competitors. The transparency and timelessness of this conclusion suggests that the domestic firms face competitive difficulties that researchers and industry analysts have yet to identify

After all this, after all these years, GM is still not listening. The question is why? And why do the politicians keep bailing their asses out? Why do the business "leaders", so adamant that the free market should reign let this happen again and again?

Buy a junk car, pay for too much gas and maintenance, then pay to keep the company alive so you can buy another junk car and then pay too much for gas and maintenance.