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Old 03-04-2013, 11:19 AM   #11 (permalink)
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If you are worried about pollution water injection can be used to greatly reduce NOx levels and PM emmissions all while giving better fuel economy and more power.
Edit: for up north you may want to retain the EGR for use in cooler months to aid with warm up.

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Old 03-04-2013, 12:00 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
If you are worried about pollution water injection can be used to greatly reduce NOx levels and PM emmissions all while giving better fuel economy and more power.
Edit: for up north you may want to retain the EGR for use in cooler months to aid with warm up.
IF I am worried about pollution? I would be very ignorant if I wasn't. Shame on anyone who isn't!

EGR isn't good in cold climates. Lots of shellacking, plugging up, etc., unless you use an elevated idle speed - 1000 RPM+. And though I am "up north", it's very mild here all winter long anyway - usually slightly above freezing all winter long.

Do you have good solid empirical data on water injection vs. emissions vs. g/hp-hr? I know the hot rodded diesel pickup guys use it to prevent unwanted large bangs when pushing hard.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:18 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Id hope the environment is considered in everyones quest for mpg. Granted I plan on a new exhaust for my kick, I also plan on adding a high flow cat in place of the oem one. Gasoline engines I thinkwould be easy to add a cat to clean it up, not sure about the diesels. I hear the system collects the soot, then burn it off every so often in a regen cycle. I doubt something like that could be fitted to a diesel lawn mower engine.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:19 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I have nothing against hybrids, but have no interest in the current Prius. As far as I'm concerned it's just another bloated sedan with no manual option (dealbreaker for me)...
Same here. It's one reason I drive an Insight, the other being that I want only two seats.

The other thing that I dislike about the Prius is the other little design stupidities, like that center-mounted display screen, the ignition switch that doesn't actually turn off the engine...
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:33 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Gasoline engines I thinkwould be easy to add a cat to clean it up, not sure about the diesels. I hear the system collects the soot, then burn it off every so often in a regen cycle. I doubt something like that could be fitted to a diesel lawn mower engine.
There are passive DPFs out there that do not require active regeneration. They do not work in light load applications because there is not enough engine heat to oxidize the collected soot in the DPF. Soot oxidation requires 600F minimum. If you installed a DPF on your diesel lawn mower and kept the engine loaded enough to maintain 600F+ EGT, it would probably work.

A modern, active DPF actually has two parts: the catalyst and the DPF. When soot buildup needs to be burned off, the engine supplies raw diesel fuel, either sprayed into the exhaust post-turbocharger (separate injector or "doser") or sprayed in cylinder via fuel injectors during the exhaust stroke. This fuel is carried by the hot exhaust into the catalyst where it hits the platinum and oxidizes, making LOTS of heat in order to oxidize the soot collected in the DPF. Normal active regeneration temps are regulated at ~1000-1200F, where soot is rapidly oxidized - about 20 minutes at this temperature clears out most of the collected soot.
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:14 PM   #16 (permalink)
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To throw a wrench in the discussion, I found a biodiesel vs diesel emissions chart. It kind of goes against what I thought about biodiesel:
http://www.biodiesel.org/docs/ffs-ba...fact-sheet.pdf
That comparison was done with all pre-1997 engines. It's really unfair to try to say that the fuel itself makes emissions go up or down by a certain percentage--especially with all the new electronic controls and aftertreatment--it's tough to know how the controls respond. In my experience, most of the "modern" (EGR, common rail, etc.) diesels have larger NOx increases and larger PM decreases than the older diesels.

It all depends on how you run the engine and how the controls work. When I was in grad school I made a controls algorithm that sensed biodiesel via an O2 sensor and then modified the control strategy to keep engine-out NOx, PM, & efficiency as good or better than conventional diesel (with a 2007 Cummins 6.7L):

http://watch.discoverychannel.ca/dai...11/#clip405284
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:39 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I was assuming the use of a pre-DPF engine. I don't think I would risk running bio-D in a common rail engine - the tolerances are too tight and the room for error is too great. Consider that the secondary filters are now, what, 5 microns? 3? I forget. A set of injectors and a HP pump head would cost you about $4500 + labor.
Believe me, I have changed a few!
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:46 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I am not a hater. At least not on a engineering product that consist in the hard work of a lot of people. On the other side hate is a gate to the bad side of "The Force" . On the other hand I become suspicions and allergic to the imbecilities of the politicians and corporations. An "eco" car is a not build one. Prolonging the life of an existing car, even if in terms of emission is not so evaluated, is far more beneficial for the planet than scraping it and buy another one. Oups! that is no so good for business... If the motivation for politicians would have been the health of the planet, they would go in the direction of developing KIT system for current cars on accessible prices and encourage of conservation of the current running cars, dropping the craziness of production of new cars. But is obviously not the case, so all taxation and regulations for me are just pretext for making more money to tax the nontaxable. And they are successful because we are doing a lousy job questioning and controlling our representatives. That is a different story. I like the "principle of the condenser" to sore the extra energy and to release it when needed. Everything else, in my opinion, is excessive and not economical.
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I think the big issue is that accuratly defining terms like "clean", "green", and "eco-friendly" is not an easy task--even by people who are trying to be honest, fair, and objective.

This is particularly true since most to these definitions involve comparing something that does exist to some alternative that is assumed would have existed in it's place.
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Last edited by Diesel_Dave; 03-04-2013 at 03:43 PM..
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:41 PM   #20 (permalink)
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As an owner of an older VW TDI, I am obviously biased so it is no surprise that I prefer the diesels. I like that I can go from pure dino-diesel to pure bio-diesel (or anywhere in between) with little to no penalty in FE. I like that it is a manual transmission, which my wife (thankfully) also prefers. I like that I have a lifetime average FE of over 50mpg with both my wife and I driving, despite the fact that she is not nearly as good at hypermiling as I am. And I like that locally we have an amazing TDI support group, so getting things fixed or upgraded is not nearly as expensive as going to the dealer or even an independent shop.

The smell and noise is a bit subjective, and I have to admit I like both. It's probably because I grew up around them. The sound of a diesel at cruise or the sound of the turbo spooling up or down is music to my ears. Weird, I know.

I do like the concept of the Prius, but I wouldn't want one. If I lived, worked, and shopped within a city and rarely made it onto a freeway, I might feel differently. But I am glad they exist and that they are getting significantly better FE than the vast majority of new vehicles. And I'm glad that they are helping drive a 'hybrid revolution', which helps bump the overall FE of all new cars with that technology. Short of not building new cars (as calfianu suggested), hybrids seem to be a reasonable stepping stone for the 100mpg(e)+ cars.

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