Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Fossil Fuel Free
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-25-2016, 06:33 AM   #51 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
sendler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Posts: 2,935

Honda CBR250R FI Single - '11 Honda CBR250R
90 day: 105.14 mpg (US)

2001 Honda Insight stick - '01 Honda Insight manual
90 day: 60.68 mpg (US)

2009 Honda Fit auto - '09 Honda Fit Auto
90 day: 38.51 mpg (US)

PCX153 - '13 Honda PCX150
90 day: 104.48 mpg (US)

2015 Yamaha R3 - '15 Yamaha R3
90 day: 80.94 mpg (US)

Ninja650 - '19 Kawasaki Ninja 650
90 day: 72.57 mpg (US)
Thanks: 326
Thanked 1,315 Times in 968 Posts
I found a good study on a 20 unit hydrogen bus fleet that operated at Whistler Mountain, Canada. This was the largest single location fleet of hydrogen busses in the world and the results were actually pretty good. The energy efficiency of the fuel cell was acceptable, surpassing the equivalent energy of the diesel counterparts by 5%.
.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy14osti/60603.pdf
.

  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to sendler For This Useful Post:
thingstodo (02-25-2016)
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 02-25-2016, 11:14 AM   #52 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Stubby79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Victoria, BC
Posts: 1,747

Firefly EV - '98 Pontiac Firefly EV
90 day: 107.65 mpg (US)

Little Boy Blue - '05 Toyota Echo
90 day: 33.35 mpg (US)

BlueZ - '19 Nissan 370Z Sport
90 day: 17.19 mpg (US)
Thanks: 75
Thanked 576 Times in 426 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
I found a good study on a 20 unit hydrogen bus fleet that operated at Whistler Mountain, Canada. This was the largest single location fleet of hydrogen busses in the world and the results were actually pretty good. The energy efficiency of the fuel cell was acceptable, surpassing the equivalent energy of the diesel counterparts by 5%.
.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy14osti/60603.pdf
.
Been a while since I last saw one of those buses...maybe they all moved to whistler.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2016, 01:17 PM   #53 (permalink)
.
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Salt Lake valley Utah
Posts: 923
Thanks: 114
Thanked 397 Times in 224 Posts
This is absolutely incredible, and the first thing to really impress me in a while. Will look up more info later.

__________________
I try to be helpful. I'm not an expert.
  Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to sheepdog 44 For This Useful Post:
iveyjh (05-12-2016), NeilBlanchard (05-13-2016), niky (05-15-2016)
Old 05-12-2016, 01:48 PM   #54 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
iveyjh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Canyon Lake, Texas
Posts: 222

none - '98 Honda Civic HX

none - '00 Chevy (Geo) Metro base

none - '00 Saturn SL1 base
Thanks: 126
Thanked 77 Times in 50 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepdog 44 View Post
This is absolutely incredible, and the first thing to really impress me in a while. Will look up more info later.

WOW!!! Awesome.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2016, 12:53 PM   #55 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
NeilBlanchard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Maynard, MA Eaarth
Posts: 7,907

Mica Blue - '05 Scion xA RS 2.0
Team Toyota
90 day: 42.48 mpg (US)

Forest - '15 Nissan Leaf S
Team Nissan
90 day: 156.46 mpg (US)

Number 7 - '15 VW e-Golf SEL
TEAM VW AUDI Group
90 day: 155.81 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3,475
Thanked 2,950 Times in 1,844 Posts
I really like the new car, but I still think hydrogen is not the way to go. The aero is sweet.

Though the trunk is just 6 cu ft.
__________________
Sincerely, Neil

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2016, 01:29 PM   #56 (permalink)
home of the odd vehicles
 
rmay635703's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere in WI
Posts: 3,874

Silver - '10 Chevy Cobalt XFE
Thanks: 495
Thanked 863 Times in 650 Posts
The car could go 3x as far on CNG for 1/10 the price.

Or could be an awesome EV, too bad we just have to drive a unicorn.

Might as well drive it as a compressed air car.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to rmay635703 For This Useful Post:
oil pan 4 (05-17-2016)
Old 05-18-2016, 05:38 PM   #57 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 982
Thanks: 271
Thanked 385 Times in 259 Posts
You continue to trump hydrogen with compressed air?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
The car could go 3x as far on CNG for 1/10 the price.

Or could be an awesome EV, too bad we just have to drive a unicorn.

Might as well drive it as a compressed air car.
This car is hardly a unicorn. Impractical for some and not well placed market wise, for others. But it can and does do what they say it does - move 2 people at reasonable speeds up to 300 miles.

They are a small company and they have decided not to go head to head with the existing giants in the industry by bypassing commuter electric vehicles and their associated limitations of range due to cost. Leafs and iMevs and eFiats struggle in that market and it's limitations.

The only battery cars that can travel 200-300 miles are the much higher priced Teslas.

Using CNG would require considerable outlay in engine certification for emission reasons and a small company may see fit to bypass that all together. Fuel cells may not be the answer, but they think so. It allows them marketing uniqueness.

The long range compressed air cars I have seen use CNG heating of the motor air to increase range into that 200-300 mile span without a huge air tank. Not a big problem but now you are "duel fueling" at your stop.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2016, 09:59 AM   #58 (permalink)
home of the odd vehicles
 
rmay635703's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere in WI
Posts: 3,874

Silver - '10 Chevy Cobalt XFE
Thanks: 495
Thanked 863 Times in 650 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
This car is hardly a unicorn. Impractical for some and not well placed market wise, for others. But it can and does do what they say it does - move 2 people at reasonable speeds up to 300 miles.
I like the car, just hate the powertrain.

A drivable unicorn is still a unicorn.

I can drive a unicorn compressed air car for a lower cost per mile than hydrogen.

I guess in my mind its fuel source isn't practical, for me there are exactly zero hydrogen stations here and likely won't be for decades

Now since CNG and hydrogen use the same systems and components, why don't they make the car dual fuel?

It would require nothing additional since a hydrogen motor Is nothing more than an oversized ICE with injection?
  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rmay635703 For This Useful Post:
NeilBlanchard (05-19-2016), Xist (05-19-2016)
Old 05-20-2016, 03:04 PM   #59 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 982
Thanks: 271
Thanked 385 Times in 259 Posts
Again, errors of understanding.

I've been accused of being unkind in rebuttal, but sometimes there is no way around it. But, the bottom line here is that hydrogen is just the ENERGY CARRIER. The same way electricity is. They both transfer the energy of the primary power source. With that in mind you can see that the Rasa is both brilliant and flawed at the same time, but only in the aspect of the energy carrier. I have mentioned in other posts that fossil fuels are essentially energy carriers of the sun but for the narrow timeline that is humanities endeavors we can consider it as a primary energy source as we can solar derived energies such as wind and weather.

This misunderstanding runs deep in many global energy discussions on this and other forums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
I like the car, just hate the powertrain.
I think you mean, "I hate hydrogen". The drive train is brilliant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
A drivable unicorn is still a unicorn.
By that argument my waste vegetable oil powered cars and trucks are unicorn simply because you don't have the same sources of the fuel as I have. I have run those vehicles for over a decade with hundreds of thousands of miles use. I guess they aren't practical or real.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
I can drive a unicorn compressed air car for a lower cost per mile than hydrogen.
I'll take that bet any day.

Let's see you do your calculations and I'll do mine.

Let's make the base starting point a solar array that provides electricity to your charge point. Do your calculations from the wall plug to your vehicle wheels via air as your energy carrier. I'll do the same for hydrogen. The calculations will be only for the energy efficiency of transfer. Not material or build costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
I guess in my mind its fuel source isn't practical, for me there are exactly zero hydrogen stations here and likely won't be for decades
This is really the crux of the matter at hand but the same could be said for most any cutting edge power source or energy carrier - it's not practical until it is. I grew up helping my grandfather build things out in the jungle that surrounded our family farm. We used hand saws, hammers and augers to build fencing, sheds and bridges. Electricity would have been nice but none was available in the jungle or on the farm. Is this an extreme example? Yes it is. But hydrogen is an extreme example of an energy carrier that has not yet found it's place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
Now since CNG and hydrogen use the same systems and components, why don't they make the car dual fuel?

It would require nothing additional since a hydrogen motor Is nothing more than an oversized ICE with injection?
The Rasa is fuel cell powered and thus, this discussion is oblique. However, if you watch the video and all that was said, it was emphasized that all components and technologies used were to be "off the shelf". Everything on the Rasa was maximized/minimized so that only an 8.5 Kw fuel cell output would be needed. I am quite sure the builders of the Rasa are familiar with Solid Oxide Fuel Cells (SOFC) but none are currently made in a practical size for the car mainly due to the minimum size needed to run the core at the relatively high temperatures SOFC currently need to run. In the next couple years SOFC catalytic chemistries will allow 500-600 Deg C making smaller fuel cell packs for applications such as these practical. A short time later and 350 Deg C packs will be common. This will allow the Rasa and other vehicles to leverage the CNG infrastructure as its fuel source. To be exact, most any hydrocarbon source, both gas and liquid, could be used. This is not unicorn stuff. I have seen the military prototypes under testing/development here in San Diego. These SOFC power packs will allow electrical production in battle field conditions with whatever fuel sources that can be scrounged up - NG, propane, gasoline, JP-8 or waste vegetable oil.

The Rasa can be MULTI-FUELED in the next coming years as tech grows.

Your air car will still be an air car.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com