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Old 11-27-2009, 07:53 AM   #41 (permalink)
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roflwaffle -

According to EPA's guide on engine switching, that is incorrect. The chassis/engine must be from the same manufacturer, and the end result must mirror exactly an EPA/CARB certified configuration.

That means no 6.5 diesel in your Civic, friend.

It goes so far as this: The L-series GM engine in the Saturn Vue from certain years was actually a Honda engine. The exact same engine from any Honda car is not legal to install in the event of engine failure, because even though it's the same engine, it's not from the same manufacturer. If anyone had done any checking, and properly re-registered the vehicle after the switch, it would be tagged and no longer legal for road use.

This isn't just Cali, either. It's the EPA in general. It's illegal anywhere in the US to do these things.

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Old 11-27-2009, 02:57 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Where did you get the same manufacturer bit from? All I'm seeing here is the same rules as the state. As long as an engine/emissions/etc package is certified and the same year as the body or newer, I can dump it in whatever LDV I want to. What I can't do is combine parts that weren't certified, or jump between LDV/HDV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPA
For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty engine into a different light-duty vehicle by any person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis
My legalese isn't great, but I'm pretty sure that in English this means it's illegal unless the new engine/emissions/control/etc is identical to a certified configuration of the same year of, or newer than, the vehicle I'm dropping the new engine into.
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Old 11-27-2009, 03:15 PM   #43 (permalink)
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You might want to check w/JPStaub as for the conversion from "guideline" to actual legality. If he can figure out how to put a polo engine in an insight legally, it has to be more complicated that "don't even think about it"

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post127374
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Old 11-27-2009, 03:27 PM   #44 (permalink)
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There are certainly exemptions too, but they're a pain in the rear to get. For someone who actually wants to determine if a business can be made from diesel swaps into Insights or whatever, they can test the car for a limited time, then pay the bucks to certify the engine if they want to go ahead w/ the business, but I don't think there are permanent exemptions.

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Old 11-27-2009, 07:40 PM   #45 (permalink)
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The language in the abstract actually warns against swapping between manufacturers because it could be costly to create a certified configuration using all the proper emissions equipment for the certification.

In reality, ANYTHING can be smogged and pass, regardless of whether it's a custom configuration or not, California or not. That doesn't mean it's easy. For the most part, you're basically limited (usually financially and time wise) to basic switches that are part of an already certified configuration, which means not switching between makes and models, etc.

I did misread that, though. It's not specifically illegal to swap between manufacturers, just generally not doable.

And then there's this tidbit:

It should be noted that while EPA's policy allows engine switches as long as the resulting vehicle
matches exactly to any certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the chassis
, there are
some substantial practical limitations to performing such a replacement.

Which is what tells me that you can't swap between manufacturers without special regard, since the entire chassis/engine/emissions package must be a certified configuration.

Rereading it, though, it seems that the chassis is only used to designate the year, and thus, the emissions regulatory status, of the swap. (OBD status, actual equipment checks, etc.)

So in that case, you'd be correct.

You may resume the 6.5 Civic. I want.
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Last edited by Christ; 11-27-2009 at 07:50 PM..
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Old 11-27-2009, 11:57 PM   #46 (permalink)
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It doesn't have to have the same chassis strictly speaking, although it certainly simplifies things (more like legos than custom motor mounts), it's just that the MY of the vehicle chassis that the engine and junk is going into must be the same or less than the certified engine/emissions package. That way people can't put a 75 engine into an 80 car to avoid smog. I think the transmission also has to be the same as an existing certified configuration technically, but it's not something I've ever heard of being enforced. I always thought dropping one of those 8L GM engines in a rusty compact would be cool, if it could be made to fit. Maybe cut the car in half then weld it up around the engine/trans in it's own subframe or something?
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Old 11-27-2009, 11:59 PM   #47 (permalink)
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The transmission thing, we discussed earlier. It's a law, but it's probably not enforced much.
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Old 11-28-2009, 12:46 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Doh! Talk about short term memory. Yeah, it's just too impractical to enforce. Same reason why drivers can get away w/ flashed ECUs. It isn't costly to remove and examine gear ratios or code or whatever.
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:39 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of the same or newer model year
Seems pretty unambiguous to me; the vehicle has to be identical to a certified configuration. That means engine plus chassis has to be something that the EPA and/or DOT and/or CARB has already signed off on.

More evidence of the "DON'T TOUCH IT DUMMY" school of thought for emissions testing regs.

-soD
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Old 11-30-2009, 08:44 PM   #50 (permalink)
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The key words in the EPA engine switching doc and associated memos that Christ provided are:

Quote:
This policy states that EPA will not consider any modification to a "certified
configuration" to be a violation of federal law if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected.
I think the intent is pretty clear here, don't make your car/chassis pollute worse. Most yahoos (If I may speculate) are interested in more power/etc and think removing the cat means only good things. If you answer to the call of "DUMMY" then yes, don't touch it certainly.

But if you are putting in a contemporary engine/fuel system/exhaust/etc FOR THE PURPOSE OF REDUCING CONSUMPTION AND RESULTING EMISSIONS, then you certainly have a basis for believing emissions will NOT be adversely affected, but rather improved. And you can hedge your bets simply by doing before and after exhaust gas analysis.

towhit, people are swapping in electric motors without much hassle, people are swapping in TDIs even.

If that proves insufficient, it says "In many cases [federal testing] would be required", but the "many" there may be due to the large number of people who are at odds with the clean air act when they make such modifications.

The limiting factor for cross manufacture swaps is their impression of the level of difficulty involved, not because it is inherently evil.

But if you swap an obdII engine and all it's sensors and the exhaust and the ECU (and put a stick shift and compatable ECU in there while your at it) with the intent of consuming and polluting less, and the ECU doesn't code, then whats the problem? Unless you are from California or something

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Last edited by dcb; 11-30-2009 at 09:02 PM..
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