Sub-Cd 0.09 paradigm

[aerohead]

The Litestar didn't go over.Aptera is dead on arrival.Loremo.The Corbin Sparrow,under different ownership is still kicking a little,but essentially a dead man walking.The upcoming little trike has been in the pipeline too long now and may be stillborn.
The VW may determine whether anybody is willing to do reduced frontal area.
A past head of GM Styling remarked something to the effect of "we make cars to sit in,not piss over."
Lee Iacocca had open hostility towards econoboxes which he affectionately referred to as "****boxes."
And Madison Avenue,at the behest of large auto makers,has succeeded in planting fear in the mind of the buying public (formerly citizens),with respect to safety,as a function of car size,which went all the way up to the White House.
All the small concepts I've seen have bombed at the international car shows.
There seem to be a deep-rooted psychology embedded within modern culture.
Small means,cheapness,retardation,low performance,inconvenience,individual failure,danger,impotence,austere self-inflicted deprivation.
While billionaire's will willingly crouch into a low frontal area business jets, minimum wage earners recoil in horror at the proposition of driving something sensible and actually within their means.
It's gonna be a tough nut to crack.

[Grant-53]

Corbin is building a Sparrow II according to Craig Vetter to compete in the Vetter Challenge event. There are cars you get into and there are cars you put on.

I would love to see a 3 cyl diesel in an aluminum honeycomb semi-monocoque dressed in the body of a C-111 MkIII boattail. Too often Detroit has sold cars just to make money rather than making cars people need. There is a reason more Corollas have been sold than any other make. It comes close to being the ideal automobile.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Grant-53

There is a reason more Corollas have been sold than any other make. It comes close to being the ideal automobile.

I prefer my subaru 360, too bad the brakes and sheetmetal have to rust out.

Seats 2 comfortably (I'm 6'3") and 4 uncomfortably and all in a 4'x10' package.

[elhigh]

I'm glad to see Corbin back in the mix. It never really struck me that Myers was doing much with the Sparrow when they bought the production rights to it. I am glad to see that Myers hasn't totally punted their commitment to electric mobility, either, but I don't see anything tangible from them. At least Corbin have the real world experience of having developed a car from scratch and brought it to limited production. That's more than many other players can say.

It would be interesting to ask the question, since Musk has committed to making open source the design of the Tesla products, what advantage could Corbin take away from that? Obviously they could afford to install much, much greater battery capacity and with it, sufficient power to twist the motor to more highway-capable speeds and medium-long commute-friendly ranges.

And with all of that said, the Corbin Sparrow is still not sufficient for me. The new design looks like it might be a bit sleeker than the old Sparrow - it closely resembles the early Merlin sketches - but I need two seats. This is the same problem in the new Myers concept. I carpool and that isn't about to change. It's the single most effective thing I do to maximize the utility of my fuel purchase.

[mikesheiman]

Mind my possible oversimplification here but, if we're talking about completely autonomous driving, why not simply have all passengers recline (to the point of alomst completely riding lying down)? The entire car could be only a couple of feet high, making the height and likely frontal area some half of even the most aggressively low-slung sports cars. You could also make the whole thing shaped like a triangle, putting one passenger between a moderately behind the left-right passengers and one slightly in front (you could even have them all facing each other). If I have it right, this would hopefully allow for a very easily elongated and inward/tapered tail, an outward "tapered front" (shaped not unlike a flattened/shortened front-top and rear-top of a jet airliner) and insanely low Cda.

[mikesheiman]

Originally Posted by aerohead

And Madison Avenue,at the behest of large auto makers,has succeeded in planting fear in the mind of the buying public (formerly citizens),with respect to safety,as a function of car size,which went all the way up to the White House. All the small concepts I've seen have bombed at the international car shows. There seem to be a deep-rooted psychology embedded within modern culture. Small means,cheapness,retardation,low performance,inconvenience,individual failure,danger,impotence,austere self-inflicted deprivation.

Agreed!
Personally, I'm attempting to home-build an electric car (really a trike shaped like an enclosed car) with a sub-0.2 Cd that sits 4 and weighs at least under 1500 pounds (and I'm constantly trying to think of ways to make it lighter). In fact, the thing isn't even small (basically Corvette-like in proportions)...but that doesn't stop flaming messages about it being an "econobox" or that it would "never pass crash tests" or "who would want to be in a 1500 pound death trap hitting a 4000 pound SUV?"

In fact, it seems like a self-perpetuating problem...people buying large and heavy cars to "defend" themselves from other large and heavy cars.

This also makes it a royal pain for anyone trying to break the mold and build a light and/or efficient car, such as small companies like Aptera. Not only do you have to challenge the stigmas, but you have to have enough money to crash test the thing (and, even then, many won't trust the safety).

IMO, the Edison2/VLC project (I don't have enough posts to be allowed to give a/the link) nailed it with an under 0.16 Cd car that seats four, has a short enough length to be dead-easy to park, and actually incurred HALF the impact on passengers during a crash test as an average modern car. Not to mention they won the X-prize with that car. But even when I showed that to people on the EV list I'm a member of, they gawked "looks like a death trap...come on...it's a 1300 pound car!". And now, the man running the project, Oliver Kuttner, has apparently moved the project to (edit: the Ukraine) because public stigma is so bad in the US that no major auto manufacturer was willing to license/build his car in mass production.

If anyone has a hack to get past this stigma...I'd love to hear it.

[Frank Lee]

Just have to face the fact that there are lots of pansies out there. They go on about smashing into trucks as if that's something they do frequently. Just consider them background noise.

[freebeard]

You could also make the whole thing shaped like a triangle, putting one passenger between a moderately behind the left-right passengers and one slightly in front (you could even have them all facing each other). If I have it right, this would hopefully allow for a very easily elongated and inward/tapered tail, an outward "tapered front" (shaped not unlike a flattened/shortened front-top and rear-top of a jet airliner) and insanely low Cda.

I'm having trouble picturing this. You have five posts now, do you have an example?

I like the Edison2 VLC a lot. Especially the in-hub steering. Do you have a link to the story about Oliver Kuttner going to Russia?

[mikesheiman]

Originally Posted by freebeard

I'm having trouble picturing this. You have five posts now, do you have an example?

The closest thing I can think in any sort of development form is Neil Blanchard's "Car Ben" design here.

What I'm describing is based on a similar seating arrangement, only with all the passengers reclined and the back two seats replaced with on reclined seat that's in the very middle (not on/toward the right side of the car).

Originally Posted by freebeard

I like the Edison2 VLC a lot. Especially the in-hub steering. Do you have a link to the story about Oliver Kuttner going to Russia?

Some info can be found here.

He even says

I am in Ukraine because Ukraine is exactly the kind of place where $4.-- gallon of gas is very expensive (average income $2500.-- per year per person...) You learn how to win in Ukraine you will win where more than 2/3rds of the world population sit... -Kuttner

It seems this man will stop at nothing to change the world...admirable.

And (correction): yes, it's the Ukraine, not Russia.

[freebeard]

Well, Ukraine is not Russia, currently, and that post is 1 year old.

Here's a story from 12 March of this year:

He’s back! Oliver Kuttner returns to local development with a new project and big ideas