Why is Ethanol such a polarizing topic?

[Allch Chcar]

I couldn't find the old Ethanol blending thread. Previous tank was Gasohol with upto 10% ethanol, 27.73MPG. I ran a tank of ~15% ethanol, MPG plummeted to 21.28 MPG. I didn't drive most of it so I don't know the conditions but the Ultragauge said it would be 29MPG. :/

Latest tank was E20, 28.1MPG. Ultragauge said 32.0MPG. :| Not very scientific but I'm more concerned with drivability at this point. It's running good, nothing aberrant.

[RedDevil]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

A few years ago I dropped the metal gas tank from the Tempo to change the fuel pump. I've been running E85 and various blends of ethanol, never less than E10, since I owned the thing starting in 2000. That gas tank looked absolutely spotless inside, no corrosion, no goop, no dirt.

Was referring to the cylinder head and piston, and it only corrodes aluminum etc.
Wonder how your fuel tank would fare when it is made of aluminum and heated up to over 200°C repeatedly

The corrosion thing cannot be that much of an issue or we'd know about it.

[roosterk0031]

I don't know how a Ultraguage calculates MPG, but a SGII has to be calibrated to a specific blend figured that out with the Stratus so had to use tanks for calculations

I'm playing with the Cobalt now and the factory guage seems to be reading OK. My testing is still early and using pretty short fills so going to rely on the factory guage not tank fills trying to squeeze as much E70/85 in as I can.

E0 last 3 tanks have been in 44-45 range.
E13 car indicated 44.8
E38 car indicated 40.1
E45 after 70 mile me driving car indicated 37 (only down to 35.4 after 210 wife miles)

I'm calculating E% based on the local tuners say all E85 is actually E70, one of these day I'll get a gradulated cylinder to measure blend %.


http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...l-18896-3.html

Link to an old thread with my Stratus results.

[Allch Chcar]

Yup, aluminum engine components are coated for corrosion. New fuel components are almost all plastic based if they aren't stainless steel or anodized aluminum. Rubber and mild steel was phased out a long, long time ago.

That doesn't stop people from claiming Ethanol or E85 is dangerous.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by roosterk0031

I'm calculating E% based on the local tuners say all E85 is actually E70, one of these day I'll get a gradulated cylinder to measure blend %.

There you are Rooster, I was going to ask about the old testing thread. I tried searching for it but didn't find it.

That also reminds me that I also need to get a cylinder for testing E85. I saw the Quickfuel one specifically for E85 but it was $20. Right now I'm calculating E% with a spreadsheet and assuming it's E85 and Regular is E10. It's cheaper that way but the accuracy isn't what I would like. :/

I was a bit nervous about pumping too much E85 the first time but redid the calculations 2 or 3 times just to ease my mind. Hoping to work up to E30 but the price spread is 25 cents!

[Grant-53]

There is a good deal of debate because of the technical complexities, economics, and the tensions between the political ideologies of top-down versus bottom-up thinking. On the macro scale we can follow the money to see if a policy is justified. At the micro level the energy efficiency is key. The work of the agricultural economists and chemical engineers is to find the optimum allocation of resources. We can experiment to find the best technology at the individual level for different conditions. One point not mentioned is that ethanol is being used as to reduce engine knock. It is also blended with methanol for fuel. Engine efficiency is a function of compression ratio. The technical question becomes what fuel stock yields the best net efficiency. At some point the economics of producing and distributing fuel stocks must match up with the production and use of vehicles. Will a car sold in Maine function in the winter as well as it might in the Arizona summer? What compression ratio can be used with the fuel available at an acceptable price? Will the mandates be responsive enough to continuous improvements necessary by changing condition? Clear thinking and adequate information can be in short supply when personal interest is the overriding goal. Are the people in the coastal cities willing to trade higher food prices for cleaner air and water or can we find other choices. How does an agribusiness allocate land and crop selection for the best return on investment? The shift we are seeing is the transition from a consumer economy to a conserver economy. This means reshaping our fundamental assumptions and that is never easy.

[roosterk0031]

Just checked ebay $5 for a cylinder, plastic should hole up just fine, I don't think the $20 gives anything more than directions but I think, put in 100 ml water, 100 ml fuel, mix, water and E like each other and separate from the gas, gas will go to top, if you now have 130 mil water/e was a E30 blend. Smaller cylinder just have to do tougher math.

[Occasionally6]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

I'm no expert on this, but I've read that pure ethanol is very aggressive on aluminum and other alloys, while even just 1 % of water would stop that, and a higher water content could even de-oxidize it (iirc).
The effect is the same in ethanol/gasoline blends, as the gasoline is pretty much inert to the alloy.

We're talking about a 85% gas / 14.4% ethanol / 0.6% water mixture over here. So 15% of 'wet' ethanol.

It is hard to find anything on the subject that's not written in Dutch, but here goes. To make matters worse, HE.15 happens to be some kind of aluminum alloy code.

It has been a while since I studied anything chemistry related but my understanding was that water was necessary for the ethanol to disassociate and form a weak acid, which is then corrosive to some metals. Maybe there's another mechanism for the corrosion.

If water is tolerable, that's built in water injection. (I believe that Ferrari did use a water and fuel mix in the early days of turbocharging in F1.)

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by Grant-53

At the micro level the energy efficiency is key.

I'll agree with many of the + & - you brought up ... but wanted to add a bit more + / - on this one in particular.

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Looking at the net system efficiency from sunlight to , move your car ... Ethanol is more net system energy efficient , than fossil fuels ... but less than the ( More-Direct-RE )+BEV.

but ... ( you knew it was coming ) ... as the saying goes ... free to me ... ie ... all that low efficiency fossil fuel solar energy , isn't low efficiency we have to pay for ... the efficiency hit already happened ... weather it is use the stock piled chemical energy or not.

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And cost efficient is a big factor ... often much larger than energy efficient... like why houses don't use 40+% efficient satellite grade solar cells on all the roofs ... it would be more energy efficient , but far less cost efficient.

So there is a point of ... as the saying goes ... 'good enough' ... 'it doesn't have to be perfect' ... at a certain point there are diminishing returns for the increasing costs.

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We have finite resources to work with ... individually and collectively ... I can't afford to pay $1 Million for a car ... no matter how energy efficient it is... heck it could produce a surplus of power after all my driving needs and power all my house hold needs and I still couldn't afford to pay that much for it.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Ethanol is a viable option as an alternative fuel when it's produced in an efficient way. In Brazil the main feedstock is sugarcane, but nearly any agricultural residue with some amount of starch or cellulose can be used as a feedstock for ethanol. Regarding efficiency, running pure ethanol into a compression-ignited (Diesel cycle) engine will overcome the 30% consumption increasement (in volume) from a spark-ignited engine.