01 Dodge 3500 4x4 dually challange!
 

The challenge... use any and all eco mods and reasonable driving mods to enable one to still commute 120 mile RT. No the house will not move... the job might sometime, but hopefully not. One always has the option to park it... but I didn't buy it leave it parked... I enjoy the truck. I get 18 mpg with in now running 65, 17 at 70... not sure at 60. 18 for a 7000 lb truck is actually pretty good. But not at $5 a gallon coming up. we're on and electric coop... so rate isn't too bad... yet anyway. I'd like to make net yield equiv to 30 mpg.

The truck: 01 Dodge 3500 extended cab 4x4 dually, full 8 ft bed.
- HO Cummins 5.9 6 speed manual...
- Need to check... but I believe the 4x4 transfer case has a full neutral gate... where all the drive line is totally disconnected from the transmission and engine. Axle Ratios remain unchanged... they are fairly high anyway. Cant really stay in 6th under 50 mph. 1200 rpm... not good to lug any 4 cycle and especially 2 cycle deisels below 1300 or so.
- Truck still needs to pull as designed when wanted...so cummins stays intact... may isolate the PS and PB systems.. so it doesn't need to be running, but the base unit stays... Other systems tie in.
- Several ideas on tie in... front axle drive shaft... let the front axle pull...
- will have bed cover... roll up, still need to access the gooseneck ball when needed for it's true design.
- may go single tire rear and switch beds... My '94 bed is fine... only needs paint to use and was always toppered, non cancered, should fit the 01 frame... if not we'll make it fit if we go this way.
-hydraulic boost...??? Interesting concept.
-electric...??? multiple motors... multiple battery banks for range... no reason the rear axle cant haul 2000 lbs easy... wouldn't even be on the overloads yet.... I'd design them on a slide in and removable....
-clean up the air flow although its not real bad on the front end shape... not sure a front deflection dam will help due to height... but why not clean up the air flowing under it? If keep the dully... could build in some deflectors in-front of them... truck actually rolls quite easily

So start thinking non-small and out of the box.... looking for deign parameters on DC electric and charging... adoption of multiples from existing used tech...like forklifts etc... mine equipment?

hydraulic regen.... how is that incorporated?

freon option? (see F150 thread)...

details on dual bank switchable bat banks?

As you can see... she's a damn nice truck.... but I didn't buy it to look at...I bought it to drive it!

I'd start with a simple bed cover or cap & see what that does.

You can feed those some propane I believe, propane's $1.85 a gallon as of last week. 92,000 btu per gallon so energy density is down compared to diesel, but still cheaper per btu.

To start out with, a hybrid is not going to do much for you, if you want to keep the current engine, and have the large hauling/towing ability available on demand. That's down to the fundamental logic of hybrids. You can find it discussed at length elsewhere here (or on the web), but briefly a vehicle uses much less power to cruise down the (level) road at steady speed than it does to accelerate. IC engines are typically much less efficient at low load (see threads on BSFC maps). So a hybrid works by using a small engine that's more optimally sized for cruising, and adds power from electric (or hydraulic) for acceleration.

Second point here is that the size of the batteries needed depends on the mass that you're going to accelerate. The battery that works acceptably in my 1850 lb Insight isn't going to do squat in a truck that size, even unloaded. And conversely, a battery that is big enough is going to cost big bucks.

(Side note: if you read articles on hybrid trucks, you'll see that they're aimed at applications with a lot of stop & go, like UPS delivery, garbage trucks, and so on, where they get the benefit of constant regen, and which is why hydraulic works better. But you're doing highway commuting, so not much chance for regen.)

As others have said, improving aerodynamics is your best bet. I'd suggest looking at the tapered bed caps others have done, and maybe even a boat tail.

Glad you're considering dropping the dually and swapping out the bed.

How soon do you expect the changes to pay for themselves in fuel cost saved? Please state in miles traveled.

I wish it was $1.85 here... have a 500 gal tank outside for hot water, kitchen range and backup heat with the furnace. It was damn near $4 last summer... not sure what it will be this year... fill once a year. I think there is a road pump near work for commercial... I'll look at the price... might be an option... thanks I hadn't thought of that...

I'm glad you are offering up lots of suggestions in the original post. Shows you are really thinking about this.

For me anyway, much of ecomodding is about reducing the total cost of ownership of the vehicle. Saving fuel has it's own thrill and make no mistake, I love to prototype and experiment when I can. Simplicity is a cornerstone to good design, it is easy to conceive of theoretically simple ideas but implementation becomes complex and expensive. I guess I'm just saying to select the simplest ideas first and progress from there.

Have you started to decide which of the ideas you or others suggested you would like to try first? See also your previous thread.

Thanks, Well, actually it only "sort of" a hybrid the way I'm thinking... with the 4x4 transfer in neutral... the cummins is off. So its more 100% E at that point. Run the PS, PB nad 12 volt alt run of a belted aux motor. That could be a little B&S for that matter... or a small motor off the main batts...

Oh... this whole eco thing is empty non-loaded (except for the bats) non-towing miles. For that its back to the Cummins and its original design... that's why I wondered about the concept of a slide out battery bank(s).

Actually for a true hybrid... I do have a 65 hp 4 cyclinder Industrial Duetz diesel... let it charge the batteries.. and be part of the slide in????. On batteries... not sure yet... likely just a bank of marine deep cells if we can work out the numbers. See... outside the box... I can design a "dock" here for the slide in. Back in.. disconnect. drive away.

Actually work is thinking of offering plugin's for e vehicles... so that will be 1/2 the commute E on their dime... but it hasn't happened yet... so I need to carry enough for the 120 mile RT, or just fire up the cummins and run normally 1/2 way home when the e runs out.

On the level, with 6000lbs trailer behind it... still got 16 mpg at 55 mph... so the battery slide in will haul reasonably when necessary (ie their dead). i.e. Put it in 2wd... front axle drive disconnects on the Dodge in 2wd remember... e-motor then stationary... fire up the cummins... with the clutch if you still rolling, and keep going. Its an idea anyway.

Yes, me and "KISS" go way back...

I'll likely have this truck and its capacity for the rest of my life. I own it outright. I'll need its capacities now and then...which is part of why I bought it. I'm just trying to figure out a way to drive it more than three times a year with the way they are jerking us all around on fuel costs. In 2009, it was to replace my gas powered 3/4 ton... and fuel was under three dollars if I remember. Now they are talking 5 or 6. But it seems the 3/4 won't quit running... so I've been only running the one ton in the non salt months. I do like driving them, always have.

wow

With two hours of commute''' lots of time to think... was from the beginning... but then was attacked on the size and other things... ended up getting way off track.

Right now I'm in the middle of a major remodel on the house... so its research only at this point... no new projects until the house is done (if I want to stay married that is... and I do).

Current thoughts,

1st will be cleaning up some aero... especially on the deer catcher. It needs to stay... well proven for around here. But... needs some aero treatments. (I've also have had an aviation interest all my life... this will not be hard.

2nd will be cleaning up drag under it. Thinking some kind of poly sheeting 3/32" or may 1/8" and lining the whole underside front to rear.

3rd will be some how reducing what the dully catches... fenders over them are fairly streamlined already... this may involve building up some custom layup on fiberglass...

After this... the battery slide in in under an aero cap that's part of it... the motor will drive the front axle... but I have find a pass though DC motor that does not use perm magnets... have to neutralize the mag fields, if the cummins is using 4x4 for very long. See I envision the DC motor will be incorporated into a custom front drive shaft assembly... but still needs to transfer regular torque from the transfer case when the cummins is doing 4x4. It might need 4x4 to pull the 8500 lb sail boat up the ramp when pulling it, this needs to be 4 wheel low range as designed.

Might have to custom design the motor (1st job after HS was in an electric motor rewinding shop... yea I can design this up too). Also along this line and the DC battery system... I have an ace in the hole... a 48 year verteran master electrician as an Uncle whose initial training was for the WWII submarines. We've talked about it...

Haven't figured out the drag on the rear pinion... that will be substantial in e mode. But if I can rebuild the rear axle to incorporate a disconnect like the front system it would be significantly reduced. But that my be a challenge... though not impossible.

Think "transformer" (as in the toys) mode, or James Bond.

later...and thanks

Here's one. No need to burn less fuel.

At lunch CNN reported natural gas prices are at a 10 year low. What is the maximum CNG assist you can run in the cummins?

I do not know.... does anyone else? I'll go out to the cummins forum and ask. Might require major mods to the pump and turbo gates...

(10 year low and on CNN... well it won't be for long I suspect...)

Here's another one. Cut your diesel with ATF.

Drop by a transmission shop sometime and ask if they'll give you thier old ATF. Run the ATF through a <1 micron filter a few times then dump it in your tank. I use 20% filtered, used ATF 80% Diesel in my tractor. Always have, always will.

Some diesel guys say they run 50% used ATF. Engine oil smokes a little more and deposits ash in the combustion chamber. I use up all I generate, and more.

You could be a rolling HAZMAT disposal site like me!

Er, I mean HAZMAT recycling site.

Been folowing your threads, nice truck, mines big enough, your's is next size up.
First thing is, particularly being a diesel, keep the mechanicals in good tune.
Payback period will always be a big question, so if you are going down this path, because it's what you like doing, not an issue, but if you are doing this because it is a financial decision, then you need to critically question the payback period.
I am dubious of the value of doing the big battery banks and electric motors, don't think you will see any return before the truck rusts out.
IMHO do the simple cheap things, like grille block, some underside smoothing, but primarily I think you need to see the king hit and the "Pickup" body is primed for a make over and there you will see a significant impact. There are plenty of examples of what others have done and the results achieved, this can be a relatively cheap project with a short payback period.
But before you do anything, you need to establish your current numbers, FE & coast down std, then as you make mods you will have something to compare to.
Is your's NA or Turbo, and if so do you have an intercooler (aftercooler) on it?

If you look at semi-trucks you will notice that they are moving to single instead of dual wheels per axle, this is for fuel savings, apparently a single wide tire is more efficient, at the same time I think you can get small size heavy truck tires that run at 100-120psi and have a much longer wear life then your current tires, they also have a lower rolling resistance and are designed for a heavier load so switching to a single rear on either side would still allow you to haul your 2000+ pounds in the bed of the truck and get rid of the fender flairs.

Best spec is obviously:

2WD
SRW
Manual trans

I'd say those will pay for the change made. As to those who demand 4WD there isn't going to be a reasonable FE commensurate with on-road requirements.

The usual list to check off is:

- all book maintenance, time & miles
- no brake drag
- no steering wander (a real weak spot)
- tire pressure according to load (and closed shoulder highway rib tires)
- no CAC leaks

Next is how to improve the usual commute:

- Plug in block heater year-round
- Other oil heaters
- Use MOPAR winter front (same)

After that is aero treatment.

Driver skill, through planning and being willing to make changes -- large and small -- in how one drives is the real money saver.

I've learned quite a bit from Diesel_Dave this past near-year. A reading of his posts ought to be of help. For example, I now shift at 1,500 and am looking at 3.42 rear gears to get the motor more closely into the FE sweet spot of 1300-1500-rpm whether in town or on the road. It's an eye-opener to realize that in-town mileage can be higher than highway.

The hybrid idea is a heckuva lot of fun. I'm curious to see what you come up with. The only additional batteries I'd add to my truck (at present) will have to do with a [future] solar bank on my travel trailer. Same for propane. It may be good for extending the range of the diesel onboard and provide greater capacity for the travel trailer as well as fire a[n] [also future] commercial ONAN generator (as the diesel generators are heavy and $$$).

It's all a balancing act between weight, complexity and ROI. So truck spec matters most in making the most, IMO.

.

Thanks
 

At this time its conceptual... because I've always seem to come up with ideas, and have built many of my ideas. Payback will be a BIG question... not to mention the work involved. But I bought it 2 years ago to drive as primary (and was attacked for that)... but that may not happen due to contrived and controlled screwing on fuel costs. I've already said my opinion on that... and it pisses me no end to have 16k tied up in this truck that they will render practically unusable at 5 or 6 dollars a gallon. I bought it also to be able to haul the 6500 lb 27 sailboat (with trailer is ~8500-9000 (never weighted it) to the great lakes and other larger lakes for mini vacations. Here I set up so the boat lives at home... as these kind of toys can have 0 fixed costs when unemployed, i.e marina fees etc... so they have to live at home and eat only when I let them eat. Don't worry every one... it was an $800.00 yes $800 I bought on ebay and hauled home from Green Bay, WI. Oh, I'm repowering it non standard non conventional too using a 65 hp Industrial Duetz... 4 times the hp for cruise (so it'll be just off idle for that)... but I like good brakes which the 13 hp outboard on 6500 lbs IS NOT! Guess we won't mention to them the 30 year old 27 ft 10ft beam Sport fisherman with a fresh 454 full inboard I ALMOST a few years ago bought for the value of the trailer under it... yes, needed a few things like stringers and a new floor which I could have done in a heartbeat... but even then at 3.25 a gallon then (now 5.50 for marine gas) it would have cost a 1.75 per minute (now about $2.25 per min) to operate at cruise on the great lakes... more (double) by the time I warmed up that 454 to 572 and a 1000 more rpm because 50 knots on BIG water is FUN! But I walked away and decided to do sail as I enjoy the relaxing effect of it too. Now even that's a problem as it has to be towed to the water... or limit the waters and pay marina fees.

Now I'm going to have to start commuting with my wife's 94 concord on days she's not using it, but with 160k on it now and not being a 300k car to start with... it won't last long. So because of the fuel companies I have to revamp everything...AGAIN!

Maybe I'll get a small 4 banger convertible sports car... but they get three prices for these too... at least then when it kills me because of some idiot I went out in style. I have a mint 85 Suzuki 700 Madura... but its dry warm days only and I am only a 2 wheel a little spooked rookie yet. A dog or a deer (which are everywhere here) will kill you, not to mention idiots that don't look. Something to be said for weighing 7k. I've had heavy metal for so long... just the lightness of the suspension and brake systems in these itty bitty cars make me nervous... there is just is nothing there... itty bitty everything! One run into the ditch and out to avoid some idiot...will kill it.

Will see if I go to single tire. For towing fifthwheel or gooseneck the dually is better depending on the tongue load.I like the dually, but running empty it has too little wt per square inch of contact area on wet pavement... my single tire (with the topper though) never has that issue. I've had the 1 ton break out twice on wet curves that I've driven the same with the 3/4 for years.

This "tranformer" idea is conceptual... and depends on locating cost effective solutions. I did rewinding and know people in that industry too yet. Yes, I CAN mill an armature, do the math, buy the comutator, build the windings, and build a custom motor/pass through front drive shaft that would set in between the transfer case and the front diff. Oh, I forgot, I'm not really supposed to have the machine tools according to green thought, as I had to haul them from Rochester NY (19500 lbs combined gross with the 3/4 ton and my 12000 lb cap tandem axle flatbed trailer). These antique units were free and I rescued them from going the scrap yard. (1920 and 1935, but work perfectly). Then there is the drag from the rear ring and pinion to address too which could be done by switching it to a used front axle with the axle disconnect system... but its not as strong and would limit its capacity. Building in a new axle system into the existing carrier would be hard as while I can mill it, I can't harden it proper.

I'll clean up its drag... and try 60 mph... but I expect the mileage difference will not be significant. I've been babying the 3/4 all week... doing various hypermile things... 62 on a four lane with zero traffic!!!(aghh!!!), 1/2 mile to accel to 60 (Geeez!)... letting it pull down to 35 on the hills (dbl geez!)... but it looks like all I'll gain is 30 miles on the tank full (about 28 gal on typical fill up), that $8 worth... not sure its worth it the aggravation factor. Gonna have to punch it once just to hear what its supposed to sound like again and regain my sanity! Might be more on the cummins, but on the v8 auto... its not significant.

Thanks for your comments... I appreciate the real ones.

Dave

Yes, one doesn't need 4x often, and when I bought 94 3/4 I went back to 2wd lim slp. But I searched it out when shopping for the 1 ton for one reason... getting a 8500# boat and trailer up the ramp when pulling out of the lake. The first time with the 94 3/4 360 auto... 98% throttle hadn't moved it... at 100% she just barely started to inch forward. In addition I had placed about 1500 lbs of fire wood in the bed because this sail boat ramp starts out normal, but about half way in they go steep and deep by design... (these boats draft 7 ft some of em). On a solid frame triple when the front axle comes back over the hump coming back out, the back two axles are still on the steep and it will actually take weight off the tongue... many big 2wd get hung there... and just spin on the dry even. I've watched it. So I weighted it. I got it out that first year as I had the traction, but not the gearing or power. And that torque converter wouldn't have held that long without cooking. The next season we took Melanie's Bronco too and chained up to the front of the 94 to assist. If I'd had 4x low range... wouldn't have had any issue. So the 4x4 has to stay. Triples tow better, but tandem would be better at the ramps.

Thanks for your insights.. I looked at Deisel Dave's in the listing. He's done quite a bit. I'm real leery of blocking flow through the radiator though. One of the reasons I get the 300k longevity on heads and blocks is they've NEVER been run hot... even a little. I got in the habit of auto scanning gauges every minute or so a long time ago. If she's start to heat off the thermostat setting... I'll know it almost immediately and take steps. The 94 has trouble in the summer heat and especially the desert 110 and even light towing... 220 all the way across w/o the AC when I came back from working out west this past summer... couldn't even think of running the AC. Chrysler didn't endow it with any extra capacity that's for sure. Made me a little nervous running across 10 in southern TX's... long hot grades. I have a 195 thermo in it, which gives a little buffer for short hills and towing around here... but the desert heat and its heat off the pavement is something else! Still couldn't get below 220 even at 45 mph on that 50 mile long (or whatever it is) upgrade before the pass. Chrysler says the fan clutch is set for 220 but I've never heard it or the new one come on... I tried to get a 200 or 210... but they didn't make one.

Thanks again... Dave

[Oh eco'rs the speed limit there is 80 or 85 BTW. When it wasn't too hot I ran 75 to 80 out there and was in danger of getting run over on I25 almost anywhere except right in Albuquerque. I was passed by a big SUV and a 35 some foot triple axle travel trailer like I was going backwards one time... I was at 85... he had to be 110 or 115... just blew by me. Just the way it is there (I25 just south of Colorado somewhere). He's likely moaning over fuel prices too now I suppose though.]

Think those flairs have that much drag? The look pretty streamlined to me. Yes I notice the trend to singles on the semis too... and as an ex driver I'm not sure I'd like them... seems they narrow the track width... and as one who came within a baby's hairs width of going over due to an idiot that loaded it (it was a drop and hook, I hadn't loaded it... I wouldn't have). When I lived through it and the discovery of 51,000 lbs of 7.5 ft diam rolls of paper that were NOT cradled!!!! Damn near killed me due to someone else's stupidity. The kid pulled it 1/2 way from MNSP to Rawlins WY, where I hooked on to it. At first I though the rocking was due to a 45 footer we had that was air ride. It wasn't.. it was the springed 45. During the 1st 1000 miles he pulled it, the 3 corner blocks they set on one side of the roll as they staggered them back through the trailer, had loosened and backed away... allowing the rolls to roll back and forth sideways. John had also stacked tail freight on the back only 2 inches from the door and clear to the ceiling. No way to see when I hooked up, as unless its a sealed load, I always look now and then even when I'm the one who loaded it. When I simply crested the crown in the road on 80 just past the tunnel at Green River... they all lined up just right and she just about went over... leaned that trailer 30 degrees (no exaggeration) likely light under the light side tandems, twisting the tractor frame... and bowing the trailer's 8 ft high side panel 6" or 8" out top to bottom. If it hadn't been a plywood/fiberglass single wall laminate sheet side wall, it would have broke through on a normal alum skin wall. I came within a hairs width of yanking her to the right just as hard as I could to force her to lay over on the pavement and not pivot over the guardrail as I had walked with it to within an inch of the rail keep it vertical or as close as I could. Not sure single tire would have had the stance needed and I'd have been dead. If your familiar with that stretch of road... its rock wall cuts or 1000 ft deep ravines... would have had to pick me up with stick and a spoon. At the bottom of the first sister there is a small truck stop (or was then anyway) and I had a flatbed back up to the doors so I could clear the tail freight and see what was going on. Mixed feelings on singles on semis.

A few thoughts:

On batteries, you will consume about 500 Wh/mile, based on your 16 mpg. A 30kWh LiFePO4 pack would easily fit in your truck, giving you (using 80% of the pack) 48 miles range. LiFePO4 is one of the cheapest long term alternatives for batteries, at about $400/kWh*.

You'll get about 2000 80% cycles (vs 300 for lead acid). If you can find deep cycle lead acid for really cheap, they can be economical, but you'd have to replace them often.

The simplest possible hybrid would be charged at home, run to 20% SOC, then driven on diesel the rest of the way. Electricity is much cheaper than diesel fuel, so you'd be money ahead, if you can deal with amortizing the battery cost.

Based on your existing mpg, you are using about 30,000 watts (40 hp) continuously. Your generator could supply a good portion of that, and at pretty good efficiency, probably. To know whether this smaller but less sophisticated engine (than your Cummins) would provide 30,000 watts more efficiently than the Cummins would require some testing or digging around for BSFC charts for each. Ordinarily you'd expect that the smaller engine, being more heavily loaded would be more efficient. But a lot of small industrial diesels are not all that great, compared to a modern Cummins.

If you search the web, you can probably find a bsfc chart fort he generator engine (or at least a full load fuel consumption rating -- which for the generator is close enough, because you'd be running it at full load.

For the truck, if you can't find a bsfc chart (which will tell you what the consumption per hp-hour is at any load) you can ask around here, or you can scale the chart for a VW TDI and not be too far off. The specific consumption for the TDI at 12 hp is probably not too far from the specific consumption of the Cummins at 40 hp.

If I were going to guess, I'd say the Cummins (at this low load) would consume 330 grams/kWh, and the generator (at its high load) would consume 220.

Of course, you can avoid all the math just by throwing the generator on the back of the truck and trying it out.

* Not knowing the condition of your heart, I did not multiply that out for a 30kWh pack.

I did...
 

* Not knowing the condition of your heart, I did not multiply that out for a 30kWh pack.

when I read it... 12k for bats is a bit defeating.... hummm.

Interesting... that's the kind of data I was looking for...

Thanks....

performance and eco chips
 

Some of the aftermarket performance chips for the Cummins cite 22 mpg... but leaning that far out makes me nervous.

Has anyone researched this?

Oh, someone asked about intercooling... its not from the factory... straight into the manifold. I think there are kits... but they were set up for the super performance some of the pullers wanted if I remember right. The idea is cool air is more dense and more O2 gets into the cylinder.

Thanks in advance...

Smarty Jr. tuner has a strong consensus on some of the forums. But auto trans doesn't live long with one (any of them). Find out the near-stock spec settings for best mpg change. But it's still a $600 cost to re-coup, and maybe 1-2 mpg average mpg improvement (which is what counts). Cam changes, different injector nozzles, etc, all are expensive and with low average mpg changes. Added together one could see 3-4 mpg for several thousand in initial expense. But as there is no free lunch, other components may wear faster (killing the overall economy).

Be a good idea to weigh your tow rig. A boat trailer is set up with 5-9% tongue weight (unlike other trailers at 12-15%). If, indeed, your boat/trailer weigh 9k, then the TW would be on the order of 450 to 800-lbs. DODGE requires a weight distributing hitch with TW of 350-lbs on up. (Remember that this is a static measurement, a fraction, of dynamic forces acting againt the truck going down the road). Both Equalizer and Reese make surge brake compatible WDH's, and the restoration of solo braking & handling dynamics make them worthwhile. Same for mpg, tire wear and brake life. Payload capacity is not at all the same as tow capacity.

Weigh it and find out. Truck solo, and truck/trailer hooked; separate numbers for truck FA and RA, then for boat trailer axle set. (A separate TW would be good as well). Might be a way to an SRW truck if enough can be transferred back onto trailer axle set (a few hundred pounds of leverage can go a long way to not being hung).

The likely TW would mean about 150 to 300-lbs onto the boat trailer axle set with a WDH. This is covered on a couple of boat forums in their trailering sub-forums, meaning it would be good to ask. The weight of the boat/trailer is otherwise within the range capable of a 1/2T truck. So maybe someone has already done this work ahead of you.

Boat trailers are adjustable to some degree, so it may be that moving the bunks would also help.

IOW, go at the problem from all the other angles as well.

trailers and towing
 

Thank you and I appreciate your effort, I really do, but a lot of the published stuff is borderline at best in my experienced opinion. This is something I really do know about.

I've been towing trailers of all types for 45 years. The boat trailer is a pull behind on a 2 5/16 10,000 lb socket, 10,000 lb ball and a 14,000 lb receiver hitch if on the 1 ton, 10,000 lb if on the 3/4. Tongue weight is about 800 to a 1000 based on the drop when hitched to the 3/4 ton (I've been towing with that truck for 17 years, so I know what it takes to drop 1 1/2" on the frame at the bumper (on that truck BTW, not necessarily yours).

I built the trailer. Its a 6" C channel frame at 32 ft each side if include the wrapped in 7 ft tongue. The C Channel butt joint is dove tailed 24" and welded on all sides... actually all the welds everywhere are 360 and duble sided. There are also stiffeners on the top of the 6"C channel on each side (25ft) with 2"x1/2" strap suspended over 3 inch high 2x2 1/8" wall risers every 16" . These were welded on the ends and then tensioned with the spacers before welding. Cross members are 3" C channel every 16", sliding triple sub frame sits under the 6" Cs with mount holes every 6", for a total adjustment travel of about 6 feet. Bow pole is 4x4 1/4 wall tied into the tongue's frame system.

Both the 14000 and the 10000 hitches have higher than typical dead weight capacity (tongue) at 1500 and 1200 respectively. I got rid of the light duty 7500 lb factory hitches a long time ago, and the very first thing I did on the 1 ton when I got it home was buy the 14000 lb hitch and replace its factory light duty 7500. Even the 3/4 was a heavy 3/4 with almost a 1 ton rear end and springs (8800 lb gross as compared to 7500 gross for the typical 3/4, as a matter of fact I have to go to a 93 1 ton parts book for its rear end and spring parts as this axle is not list in the 94 book).

All of my tandems or triples are running e brakes on all axles and a fully adjustable automatic controller that's over-ridable with a hand lever when wanted/needed. I always wire in a switch on one axle so I can disconnect it if by chance I get into winter road conditions... and then its just long enough to get somewhere and park. These aren't semis.

As yet I haven't pulled the boat with the 1 ton yet, but its pulled the 9000 lb stock trailer and the 12k flatbed fully loaded as if they weren't there (compared to the gas 3/4). There is NO WAY I'd recommend 9000 lbs behind a typical soft tired 1/2 ton... be all over the road and a real ***** to handle especially down long grades with 1/2 ton brakes and such light tongue weights it would have to have. Dangerous sway and bounce/rock conditions can setup that you may not recover from! I've seen it get away from several 1/2 ton based SUVs that are pulling more than they are really designed for but the book said they were. One was friends at the lake... totaled both, and almost killed them even with the so called anti-sway and load leveling bars. They help on level interstate but not hills, long downgrades, and curves. Don't tow heavy on any balloony over-sized low pressure Load range C radial tire... you can easily have 2" of side travel simply due to side wall flex. Load range D or Es or don't tow.

THIS IS Important! A half ton is really just a car with a pickup bed in a lot of ways. Same with the SUVs. A lot of people get away with over loaded 1/2 tons... but many do not! Even a light 7500 typical factory utility (like a car hauler, or 16ft inside the tires flatbed) may be too much depending on your tire type... and NEVER on a 3500 or 5000 lb bumper hitch like so many do! I just couldn't believe how badly some of the 7500 lb units were built when I went looking! Wouldn't have one, so I built my own 12000 lb capacity over the tires flatbed with the features I wanted and basically emulated a commercial semi flatbed, just smaller... in fact the side rails can use the same strap winches. Its hauled as much as 15000 and never once have I had issues with it. Weighs in at 2700 empty... but that's what it takes. The boat trailer weighs in a 2500 lbs empty... but has a 13,500 lb capacity. This boat is light for it. I designed it to go up to a 32 foot, 10 ft beam 11,000 lb boat. I could care less if it needs a wide load permit, it'll have one if I need it.

Please take a lot of what those published recommendations say with a few grains of salt... they are for the ideal condition that only rarely exists.

Thanks... Dave.

It's not so much the flairs themselves, as what they do to the air behind them. For minimum air resistance, you want a teardrop shape (which means that what you do at the front of the vehicle is much less important than the rear. The dually fender flares widen out the body just when you should want it to taper inwards.

I'd suggest going to the areodynamics section, and looking at what people have done with pickup shells, and why.

I'm here as living proof that it isn't likely to kill you. Been driving the smallest cars I could find since the early '70s (the Austin-Healey Sprite) up to today in the Honda Insight, and am still walking around. In fact, barring one deer (which was tossed onto my hood after being hit by an SUV going the other way), the only damage to any car I've driven happened when I was stopped, and some other idiot rear-ended me.

But I suppose I can sort of understand your feelings, 'cause when I have to ride in (or worse, drive) someone's SUV or big pickup, I feel really insecure being way up in the air like that in a vehicle that handles like a waterbed. It's like sitting on a wobbly barstool after 3 or 4 drinks...

Safety and comfort are very subjective, but modern passenger vehicles have never been safer. The argument that one needs to drive a bigger vehicle than anyone else for safety reasons, bothers me. Usually the person that feels they need extra safety is a bad driver (not implying you are) and they put others at greater risk by hurling extra mass down the freeway. Everyone trying to drive bigger cars than everyone else is a rat race that nobody wins.

You have more experience hauling than me, but I'd think a 3/4 single would easily handle the load, and provide a better ride the other 99% of the time you aren't hauling. With a low-range gearbox, pulling up ramps without burning the torque converter should be a piece of cake.

I don't think slow acceleration or slow hill climbing saves much fuel, if any. Engines are efficient when run at higher loads and inefficient when running lower loads. I've found it to be quite efficient to accelerate and climb hills at 80% throttle.

You can't lean out a diesel engine because it is already fully lean. It pulls in more O2 than necessary for complete combustion. I don't know what these chips do to increase FE, but I would be curious. I run an Edge Juice With Attitude, but didn't track MPGs back when I fitted it to the truck. Mostly I wanted the gauges it offered because I was loosing low pressure fuel pumps all the time.

The Dodge/Cummins comes intercooled from the factory.

YESSS! Oh good... much more of that and my wife would be taking me to a room with rubber walls...

Yes it did... I stand corrected. I went out and looked and its tucked in there so pretty tight and neat, I hadn't spotted it before. Other than show off how clean it was (like new... really... when I brought it home from out west), I haven't been under it much. I ran it all last summer (1st 1 1/2 years it was shedded here as I was still working out west). Two years of Ohio's humidity is starting to effect bright alum. Humpt. And its never seen a spec of salt and if I have my way it never will. I will always have a winter beater for that.

Oh.... just to explain.... two trucks we've been talking about... the one I want mod is the 01 Dodge Cummins 1 ton, My old 3/4 its replacing (at least in the summer months yet), is a 94 Gas v8 Auto 8800 lb 3/4. If I do continue to run it next winter...it could likely stand a tune (although she runs just fine)... 147k on the last tune (plugs, rotor cap wires) and FI clean up. I'd swear Chryslers spark box loves wide gaped plugs. But truthfully I'm leery of trying to change them out now... I have one in the 86 model with 200k on it but I cant get it out and now won't run on it... any more torque and it will either twist off or pull the alum threads out of the head. But its a woods hauler now so it doesn't matter. The 94 isn't quite there yet. But if I strip the plug threads I'd have to pull the heads... so I've left it alone.

The salt is still here, so I'm still commuting with the old 3/4. 1 ton is still in the shed for a few weeks yet while the rains clean the roads.

Thanks... but I have the 1 ton now... and will for a long time baring catastrophe. BTW, low range was one of the reasons for the 4x4. Actually, while yes the 4x system as a few hundred or a 1000 lbs of weight... its rolling resistance is not bad at all with Chrysler's front axle disconnect. But there is a little extra weight.

4x low range in granny with the Cummins... it'll walk that out at idle as most diesels will. You always start out a desiel on idle... even and especially with the semi at 80k. That's why it has gears.

Thanks, but the truck will always retain its max gross ratings... I'll not diminish that. If it'll pulls14 or 15k or so by design... it just pulls 9k that much easier. You have to remember, its still a small truck by hauling standards. I do not have any goose-neck or 5th wheel trailers yet... but I will.

Actually it rides well. so does the 3/4. with LR E tires you can tell if you ran over a dime or a if it was quarter, but compared to the buckboards just a few years back they've come a long ways on suspension.

To start off with, I'll admit that I haven't thouroughly read though every post on this thred (but did skim through them).

Let me start by pointing out the magnitude of the goal that you're trying to accomplish (>=30 mpg). That's close to double what you're getting now. That being said, I know it's possible, because I do it on a fairly similar vehicle. But, with there's also a reason I'm the only person I'm aware of whose done it...it ain't easy. Keep this in mind.

My first piece of advice would be not to get too far ahead of yourself. Sure, you want to go from 18mpg to 30mpg, but the first step is going from 18mpg to 19mpg, then to 20mpg, etc. While the big "out of the box" ideas are flashy and fun (and soemtimes very good), most of the people on this site will attest to the fact that their journey has been mostly one of small, incremental changes that add up to something big.

It also seems to me that you're overlooking driving mods. IMO, these can easily give you a 30-40% boost from where you are now. It sounds like one thing that you've got going for you is a long, consistant commute. This is a major plus for improving driving. Start keeping a journal/log of each day, what you did differently, and what the FE impact was. I assume your '01 has an in-cab mpg display--it's not horribly accurate but it still makes and excellent guide (i.e. higher numbers are better). Here's what will happen, you'll do something (either intentionally or unintentionally) and one day you'll get really good mileage. It can be a different route, a different shifting pattern, a different cruise speed, etc., but after you learn what it is you can learn to do it over and over again--and beforehand you never would have guessed that it made such a difference. Records are also of extreme importance for this quest of yours. I can't emphasize this enough. It's the only way you'll learn what's working, what's not, and where to focus your attention.

What is this commute of yours like? Interstate? City? Rural highway? Mix? Flat? Hilly? Many other vehicles? This will affect what things will be the biggest gains.

As far as the hybrid idea goes, I'm not to keen on it. A hydrid has the potential to benefit you in two primary ways: regenerative braking & keeping your engine in "better place" on the BSFC map. You can reap most of the benefit of both of these with careful driving. If you do the "driving wothout brakes" technique, which you try to minimize the use of braking you don't need regenerative braking because there's no energy to recover--which is even better than regenerative braking. This is key for getting good in-town FE. With a big truck like ours, you can loose a lot of energy to heat and brake dust without realizing it. Learn how to time red lights by coasting in neutral, adjusting your speed, looking at the traffic ahead, etc. Not have to brake to a stop and then use lots of fuel to get back up to speed is huge. Also, when you have unavoidable stops like stop signs, learn how to coast in neutral down to a fairly slow speed before you ever have to apply the brakes. And with regard to the "better place" on the BSFC maps, you can take care of that with shifting patterns, keeping your rpms down. I'd encourage you to try running lower rpms when unloaded. These engine have somewhere near 400 lb-ft of clutch engagement torque (max torque at idle speed), so you can run pretty low rpms unloaded without lugging the engine.

I'll probably chime back in on some of your other proposed mods, but those are my thoughts for now. I look forward to seeing how you do, and helping where I can.

And start a fuel log so we can see how you're doing.

Not only that, the argument that big vehicles - and particularly 3/4 and 1 ton pickups - are safer just doesn't stand up to real-world data. See the attached graph, from Wenzel & Ross, which shows that a 1 ton Dodge Ram is about 3 times more likely to kill its driver in a crash than a Toyota Camry, and about 10 times more likely to kill the driver of another vehicle.

You may feel safer in a big vehicle, but that safety is an illusion.

Thanks Dave

Driving tech is of course a major contributor. By default I'm not real brake dependent and pretty much do as you were saying... just not to the same extreme. Back in the semi days, I once came all the way back from CA to WI on the south route with the trailer brakes out like 2-1/2 turns on a trailer I hadn't been pulling. Since I almost never put hardly any demand them I didn't notice. I was also a little light as our back hauls were generally only grossing 65 or 70k. Boss obviously spotted this condition when he proceeded to service the trailer when I got in, and then jumped my butt (as he should have)... but as I explained to him... If I'd had a hill or had done my initial check when I hooked up as I was supposed to.... it would have been me telling him about it, as whomever pulled it was never to let it get that far (means also he wasn't doing the mandatory brake checks at the top of the big grades... something I always do). Brakes and steering are my two biggest pet peeves. He knew he was preaching to the chior. Nope not brake dependent... but I've I'd had needed them they wouldn't have been there. 2400 miles and didn't notice.

Thinking ahead to 5 or 6 dollars a gallon... its pretty safe to say I'd have to give up commuting with it then. While the transformer idea has merit in some ways... it would cost a bunch and be hard to make up although I do expect to have this truck the rest of my life. But I'll try cleaning up some of the drag... to the point that's practical.

Commute... ~ 2 miles of two track 23-30 mpg township road, then 18 miles of good US two lane, but twisty and hilly. 60% of the 25 mpg (at 40) curves you have to slow down for are at the base of a hill on the other side of the curve...so now your trying to regain your speed while climbing to boot!. This part of the commute even works the cummins, but especially the v8 if your trying to regain back to 62 mph until the next curve/hill combo in a couple/three miles. The rest is 24 miles of good open country 4 lane but not limited access. Most run 65 to 70... speed limit is 60. Rolling gentle grades. It has one good size grade (for eastern standards) that's about 5% I think for about 2 miles on each side. The v8 can maintain 70 on it but I seldom do as its almost 100% throttle to so it. If I am not careful 100% will force it out of OD. The cummins barely knows its there. Just for smiles one time I floored the cummins at the bottom in 6th doing 70... was doing almost 90 by the time I reached the top (with a big smile!)... Gotta love that turbo! And this is a stock truck...wonder what do they do when they are boosted hard?

At 6 am, there is only marginal traffic... but lots of deer.

The e thing is intriguing and I may play with that... but not on this truck I think now. Work is considering offering plugins for e cars... so maybe i'll design and build up a David machine just for commute. From my previous comments... I can do that reasonably easy. There is probably some law that says I can do what I'm thinking... GM and Chrysler can, but somehow that's different. But I have to finish the remodeling first.

As you may have guessed by now... we gave up on TV several years ago... we have no TV service and cant receive digital air in this location... but we will locate and watch a good DVD sometimes. I'll go tinker with something, read, or I go to bed.

Thanks,

Dave

I'd like to see more what Wenzel and Ross says... do you have a web address or lead where I can get detail?

Yes this graph relates the laws of physics quite well... but there are factors its NOT identifying... ie. that very few Camerys are towing or hauling... and how much of the 3x and 10x are due to the fact that the 1 tons and 3/4s are often pulling or hauling something in the bed that exacerbates its particular issues. Sure if a 7500 lb 1 ton is pulling 13000 for a total of 20500... that's about 10 times the Camery weight or so... not only does the driver have to recover from the Camery's influx of forces... but now has to regain...if possible, the rig. If that's not possible and that 13k comes through the cab your likely dead... or pulls you over as it goes over and your also in more trouble. But if your empty... its a totally different story.

Roll overs are also a factor since the truck sits higher. Its one of the reasons I like the duals... its wide stance will slide much longer before rolling over. Raw numbers don't mean anything until the basis is presented with them... typical research or data dump trying to say what they want it to say by not presenting basis or incorporating all the factors. I see it all the time in my industry. I need to see the basis. I was pleased to see them state the "significant difference" though. Most don't and all data is meaningless with out its quantifiers.

Same with the semi, but instead of 20k its 80k. I typically do not wear a seat belt...unless I am in a high risk scenario... like I95 east coast corridor or I10 in LA or similar and not in the semi.

I had a state trooper try to cite me once for no seat belt in the semi... I told him that he could write tickets until he ran out of paper... but I will not wear it in that scenario. Here's why (he actually said he couldn't argue with that...although it wasn't law then) He was standing on a 150 gallon fuel tank... with a mate to it on the other side. 300 gallons of fuel, cross over line is at the bottom of the tanks, 6" off the ground. Its one of the first things that gets ripped off the truck if it some how gets off road. On that truck the windshield was designed to pop out from the inside (Mack MH613 cab over). I once watched as two drivers burnt up when that 300 gallons of fuel caught fire and he was being pinned due to the seat belt as the cab was partially crushed from 50,000 lbs of freight trying to come through it. I've heard of others cut in half as the 50,000 lbs of freight came trough the cab above the seat belt anchors. Nope... I'll take my chances of being thrown clear... which happens a lot with big trucks. NO freight is 100% secure in an accident... whether its a pickup or a semi. It'll snap those chains and binders like they were shoe strings... your talking mega forces! There is no headache rack on the planet that will hold back a full load of steel... its going through the cab... period.

Even way back with the 1/4 ton D50 and every truck since... If I had long steel or 2x lumber in it... it was purposely stacked in the middle if I had a passenger... or the passenger side and NO passenger. If some one hits your from the rear... its will drive these through the front of the bed and the back bulkhead of the cab in a heartbeat... even on a frontal collision... their coming through just from kinetic E exacerbating your problems as is any of the freight or objects in your pickup. The heavier they are, the bigger your problems. The Camery hauling soft strapped in passengers that can't snap the straps doesn't have this issue very often.

No, the data is inconclusive if it doesn't take freight and towing into consideration. Its what they were designed for and why most of us own them. So what was the basis of the study and how were unique factors incorporated?

Dave

Try here: Is Bigger Safer? It Ain't Necessarily So It's a discussion, with a link to the actual paper. You can also find many other links by searching on something like "Wenzel Ross vehicle model risk"

Yes, that's true, but really, what percentage of the time is the typical 3/4 or 1 ton pickup actually hauling or towing? May be different in your part of the country, but around here (northern Nevada) they're mostly used to commute to office jobs, or maybe hauling a few tools to construction sites. (FWIW, I worked construction for years, driving a Mazda RX3 wagon for long trips, or a tiny by today's standards Datsun pickup for local hauling.) I doubt if time spent hauling/towing is enough to affect the statistics.

Now how on earth could he tell, given the height difference?

Sure, but you need to go with the best data you have (or can get) until you can get better, and I doubt if accident statistics record things like pickup loads. Though as above, we could make a fair guess by noting that most pickups on the road are empty or lightly loaded, and not towing.

We could also compare the rates of pickups and the truck-based SUVs they're derived from, since the SUV won't be hauling nearly as much load, and can't pull heavy 5th-wheel trailers. W&R do this, as shown it the attached, and it seems the SUV risk is less, but still much higher than for the Camry. However, the SUVs are usually based on the 1/2 ton pickup (e.g. F150 vs F350), which have lower risk than the 3/4 and 1 ton versions. There's also a driver behavior factor, which W&R address, that might reduce the SUV accident rate.

And finally, given the description of your commute in the other post, I think the best choice for your daily driver would be an older Mazda Miata.

It was a portable DOT (porta-scale) stop just off Donner coming into Reno on 80.