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Ryland 01-31-2008 01:48 AM

1976 Citicar, my new project.
 
1 Attachment(s)
I have a new project, something that I've dremed of sence I was nearly a teenager, a real electric car!

it's currently in rough shape, nearly stock, other then the batteries it appears compleat, got it on the condition that I make it work and give rides.
curb weight is around 1,100 pounds (counted with 500 lb of batteries)
Motor 3.5hp 36volt
battery pack 8 6 volt T105 lead acid (currently missing)
Speed controle is a set of relays and a big resistor (plan to update)
Frame is aluminum tube roll cadge.
body is ABS plastic with lots of cracks.
tires are 12" trailer rims, have plans to order 145R12 tires, currently has 4.80 12" miss matched trailer tires.
currently waiting on the paperwork befor I start tossing money at it.

http://ecomodder.zenutech.com/forum/...1&d=1201917752

bennelson 01-31-2008 06:28 PM

Sounds like fun!

Keep us updated on your project.

I am betting you get yours running before I get the Forkensomething to run!


(And yes, that was me with the electric motorcycle at the MREA last summer)

Ryland 01-31-2008 09:56 PM

Well, I'm still on the search for batteries, the best price I've found on T105 Trogan's is $120 + $12 core (I don't have the old ones).
I picked up some plastic weld epoxy, and fiberglass fabirc, did a test repair and the stuff stinks, glad that it's in the garage so it's not killing of brain cells in my sleep, but the cold weather is slowing the cure time so it might be a few days befor full cure, I'm still up in the air about the body, there are small chunks missing and alot of cracks, but making a whole new body seems complex as the origonal floated over the frame, the hood is the most complex of course, and it's also in the best shape, so either way I'm keeping the hood.
Ben, I'm glad that you kept going with your motorcycle project, I'm thinking about taking my electric bicycle this summer, and maybe by 2009 I'll have my citicar looking good enough to let the public see.

SVOboy 01-31-2008 10:11 PM

Great project ryland! I was wondering if I'd ever see an ecomodder pick up one of these babies.

Looking forward to the outcome!

MetroMPG 02-01-2008 09:07 PM

Ryland! Awesome project vehicle.

I hope you don't mind I edited your first post to add a pic of the car.

The cheapest golf cart batteries I've heard of are available at Sam's Club. We don't have that store here in Canada, but there are enough references to their batteries on the EVDL that it came to mind right away.

We're talking like $60 per. I can't tell you the AH rating, but I can tell you the yodas on the list warn people that they're probably not going to be very durable batts.

I take it you know all about the Yahoo C-Car group? Good resource there.

I probably would have bought one of these cars if they were available here. The C-Cars are the spiritual predecessor of the ForkenSwift.

MetroMPG 02-01-2008 09:10 PM

If I were you, I'd track down some junk or used batteries for now. You can use 'em to get the car operational so you can move it about while you're working on the body etc.

If you buy new ones, they're going to sit a long time before they see regular use, which isn't great for them.

Ryland 02-01-2008 09:24 PM

Just today I wanted to rotate the car 180 degrees, to get at the other side of it, so because it is sitting on a smooth concreat floor I simply grabed on the the corner of the car, and spun it around part way, grabed the other end and finished pulling it around untill it was where I wanted it, as it doesn't have the batteries or windows in it, I'm sure it weighs around 500 pounds, maybe slightly more, but it's easy to move.
The garage is cold enough that I put a heating pad (with the kill-a-watt meter) under the body panal that I used plastic weld epoxy on so that it would cure, I also built a plywood stand to keep the rear tires off the ground so I could check out the drive train, and while blowing dust out of the crannies, I noticed that one of the relays has a contact that heated up and came unbrazed, so I spent the rest of my time reading over wiring diagrams to figure out if I needed that relay with a new controler, and it looks like for at least some of them I do.
I'm hoping that tomarrow I'll be at the same place at the same time as the guy that I got the citicar from, and at that point I'll hopfully get an update on the location of the title, maybe offer another $50 in bribes.
I don't really want to go with sam's club batteries, cheapest I can find around here are $89 each (need 8) but today I found Torjans for $105 each and they have a good reputation, and in the EV world they say that your vehicle is only as good as it's battery, I would love to get some lithuim packs built up, but I suspect that would cost around... $10,000 to $12,000...

MetroMPG 02-01-2008 09:49 PM

Agreed on the Trojans. (Can I borrow them for a week to experience what I'm missing? :))

If the contactor controller isn't totally fried, I'd at least want to try it before yanking it out to put in a PWM unit. More than a couple of people who have owned these cars on the EVDL weren't completely happy with the "upgrade". One guy even reverted back the contactors.

Plus the contactors are 100% efficient, which is nice. Anyway, you probably know all this already.

TomEV 02-03-2008 11:51 PM

I agree with trying to get the contactor setup working before doing any 'improvements'. Having the Citicar operational in a stock state will give you a good feel for items you want to upgrade in the future.

BTW I have an Alltrax controller on my 1976 Citicar, and consider it a great improvement over contactors - no burned contact points, no whiplash to deal with.

MetroMPG 02-04-2008 08:34 AM

Hi TomEV - welcome.

Are you still @ stock pack voltage? What's the amp limit on your Alltrax?

Stan 02-04-2008 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland (Post 7644)
Motor 3.5hp 36volt
battery pack 8 6 volt T105 lead acid (currently missing)

I have a quick question because I have an old Taylor-Dunn 36v golf cart that appears very similar in layout to the Citicar. Anyway, is your car 36v or 48v? I ask because you say it needs eight 6-volt batteries. Something doesn't add up... ;)

MetroMPG 02-04-2008 02:12 PM

Ryland can confirm, but I think 3.5hp is the correct rating for the motor - it's not uncommon to run electric motors above their rating if additional cooling is added, or if they're not run continuously at max load.

And I'm fairly certain the CitiCars all came with 48v packs.

The pump motor that drives the ForkenSwift was rated for 36/48v use, however an expert motor rebuilder told us we could run it up to 120v if we adjust the brush timing.

Ryland 02-04-2008 02:19 PM

yes,it is a 36v motor running on 48v, some people say you can run as much as 64v or 72v thru them, I would be warry to do that for any kind of range without a good tempature sensor on the motor, and maybe a cooling fan, but I think I wouldn't go higher then 48v.
have you looked at your motor lable to see what it's rated at?

Stan 02-04-2008 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryland (Post 8139)
have you looked at your motor lable to see what it's rated at?

There is no label or data plate on the motor, nor anywhere else in the electrics that I can see.

That said, my cart is a 1983 GT371 "Tee Bird", and appears to have this 3-4 hp motor installed.

http://www.vintagegolfcartparts.com/...tail/MT805.jpg
Vintage Golf Carts says this motor was a common upgrade. The description kind of implies it could be boosted a bit, eh? :thumbup:

trebuchet03 02-04-2008 04:08 PM

Ryland, if you don't mind the question... Where did you find it? And, for how much?

Just out of curiosity - and pardon my ignorance.... Would D8 form factor batteries fit? And would they have less capacity? Last summer I installed 3 (of 7) 12V D8 batteries in a sailboat... They weigh 141 pounds each and the three batteries (Deka floodies) cost a few dollars more than $500 out the door. IIRC, the ones we bought were ~230Ahr - but the size is something like 20x8x11 :/

TomEV 02-04-2008 07:10 PM

My Citicar has a 3.5hp, 36 volt motor according to the data plate. 3.5 HP is the continuous rating, but even after a 25 mile run at about twice the rated HP (drawing 100 amps, about 30 MPH), it didn't get particularly hot. The Citicar has two flavors - 3.5 HP and 6 HP. (they had 2.5 in a very few early production 36v models)

My Alltrax controller is a 4844, rated at 400 amps. Since flooded battery terminals get rather hot over 400 amps (IMHO), it seems like a reasonable limit. In reality, the 4844 will go to 600+ amps for a few seconds (according to the internal logs) during hard acceleration from a dead stop, kind of like contacts (but without the whiplash...) Unless you have lots of hills, or a great number of stop signs you probably won't see 400 amps for longer than a few seconds in a Citicar-size vehicle anyways.

I added two extra 6-volt batteries (60v total) to test out what would happen, and found that the top speed and acceleration were the same with 48v when I had the stock contactor setup. Probably limited by the motor. On the other end, I took out a 'bad' battery (down to 42v) and the top speed went from 32 MPH to 26 MPH. At least for this motor, 48v seems to be the right number.

I am still at stock voltage of 48 volts - It came with eight 6-volt batteries (US 2200), but to reduce weight (and battery cost) I installed six 8-volt batteries (US 8VCG). They have about 100 amps (1 hour rate) compared to 117 amps for the 6-volt batteries that they replaced. They weigh 67 pounds each.

They -could- be replaced by four 8D batteries (12v) but the 8D's are about three inches wider than a pair of 2200's/8VGC's, so they probably won't fit in the space under the seat. In newer C-cars the batteries are in the bumper, and it would be difficult to shoehorn them in there as well.

My 8VGC batteries were about $90 each six months ago, but the price has gone up.

My daily drive to-from work is a round trip of 10 miles, which is well within the 25 mile (actual - went that far once) range with six 8-volt batteries.

Ryland 02-04-2008 08:51 PM

I ended up getting it from a friend who had it sitting in his renewable energy buisness's shop, he had bought it from a friend of his brother for $100 then paid $85 to rent a trailer to move it, he only wanted to be paid what he had invested in to it under the condition that I get it working and give him a ride.
I'm hoping to keep all the batteries in the origonal location, under the seat, and everything I've read, and people I've talked to all agree that Trojans are pretty good for the money, so I found a battery dealer that rebuilds gulf carts and will sell me T-105 Trojans for $105+$6 core charge and will take any full size battery in exchange, the Trojan head office help desk also told me about a distrubuter that they say is in town, but we can't find in the phone book... so tomarow during buissness hours I'll make more phone calls.
I'm also thinking that if the price is low enough I might go with T-145, they are about 40amp hours more (260AH...) each and 3/4" taller, leaving me 1/2" of space between the bottem of my seat (fiber glass milk house board) and the top of the battery post, so unless those higher capasity batteries are out of my price range I think I'll go with them, Trojan claims 3 year life with extream use, and 5 years with normal use.

I also tested my motor with a car battery, useing a plywood box with a notch for the axle to rest in holding up the rear end, voltage droped to 10.9v and 51amps, the motor spins nice and quite, no weird differntal noise, but my brakes need work as they don't work and one side rubs a little, I checked the brushes and they are looking a little short, so I'll also make a phone call to find out how much an overhaul is going to cost me.

bennelson 02-04-2008 09:16 PM

Wow! I think you just Paid the Least Amount Ever for an electric car.

Hmm - your car AND shipping cost less than the shipping on my forklift... at least I will have some scrap left to sell.

Stan 02-04-2008 09:22 PM

Ryland or TomEV, can you post a photo of your Citicar's motor-to-diff interface? Thx! Stan

MetroMPG 02-04-2008 09:40 PM

Ryland - that takes the cake.

Even if it needs a pile of work, that's a steal. I'm sure you know what these things sell for in good working condition.

Glad to hear the motor spun up with no problems.

bennelson 02-04-2008 09:45 PM

I would also be interested in how the "contactor controller" on these works.

I am pretty new to electric vehicles, mostly familiar with golf-cart type controllers.

Please snap some photos of the controller when you get a chance.

MetroMPG 02-04-2008 10:30 PM

There's a schematic for the C-Car contactor controller here:

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/C-Car/files/

You may need to register to gain access.

In a nutshell, a contactor controller is a number of switches and (usually) a big fat resistor. In the C-Cars, there are 3 stages in the setup: 1st speed is 24v through a resistor for creeping; 2nd speed is straight 24v (no resistor); 3rd speed is straight 48v.

Check this vid for an example of one in action.

@ about 1:50 he engages the 1st stage

@ about 1:56 he engages the 2nd stage

@ about 1:57 he goes straight for the 3rd stage

And he has a bunch of fun doing it over and over!

@ about 4:40 he gets lined up to go direct-to-4th stage from stopped ... and lights up the tires! It's a goofy but fun vid to watch...

[youtube]http://youtube.com/v/Um_RXCbfqhU[/youtube]

bennelson 02-04-2008 11:09 PM

Can't believe I watched that whole video.

It's always amazing how quiet electric vehicles are. The contactors are the loudest thing on that car.

It actually looks COOL without the body. Put some plexiglass in front for a windshield, and a cooler on back, and you have a great summer car/dune buggy!

TomEV 02-05-2008 01:06 AM

Contactor and Controller Pix
 
2 Attachment(s)
Here is a picture of a contactor setup from my Citicar -

Attachment 290

And the modded relay box with the Alltrax 4844 controller -

Attachment 291

Ryland 02-05-2008 01:29 AM

more photos uploaded! including the motor and contacters.
I feel rather lucky to get it for as cheap as I did, however there seems to be some stalling on the vehicle title for it... as soon as I get a title I'll start spending money.
And yes, I realize what they sell for in good working order, I also now have a better understanding of why people will pay for one with a good body! the plasitic gets brittle in the sun, and in the cold, if I figure out how to make a mold to make replacment body panals I'm sure I would then be rich.
As it is, I'm thinking about Cotten for the body, with a few layers of some kind of reson, varnish, or shelac, then some white roofing paint, and maybe some sound deadening insulation made out of cork... just thinking that if I could get a "green" body going...

TomEV 02-05-2008 01:33 AM

Motor Differential Mount
 
Ryland - Hard to say for certain, but it looks like a 3.5 hp motor. If you could get a pic of the data plate, we might be able to figure it out.

Your contactors look to be in reasonable shape - they should work to get you moving once you get the batteries. Hopefully the wires are still attached (including the small control wires...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDzpoLG8lpc

bennelson 02-05-2008 08:39 AM

Fiberglass over foam may be a good way to do a new body from scratch. It would be light, sturdy, and quiet.

There is a how to article at rqriley.

Maybe not quite as "eco-friendly" as you want to go, but a good possibility otherwise.


Is the contactor on the left of them all a reversing contactor? I see that it is left in even when the the drive contactors are replaced with a PWM controller like the Alltrax

Most electric motors can reverse direction by reversing the polarity of power to the motor. The only electric car I ever drove was an electric Geo Metro. There was a rocker button on the dash that said FWD-OFF-REV. You just press the button and hit the go pedal. That car was originally an automatic. Funny to see a covered up hole where the gear selector used to be.

I have an old golf cart motor I removed from a cart at a junkyard. Interesting to see how it was hooked up. It is almost the exact same one as is on the Citicar. On the golf cart, it was mounted at a 90 degree angle to the rear axle - just like how a drive shaft connects.

There was a reversing contactor and 3 resistance coils. The idea was like having a couple of "gears". These thick coils of wire resist that battery, so you get less voltage. Works just like a toaster. It also means you were using the same amount of power at any speed, but the slower you go, the more electricity got wasted being turned to heat. Only the highest setting connected the battery pack more or less directly to the motor.

(BTW - How do you go in reverse in the Forkenswift? Just shift to reverse I assume?)

MetroMPG 02-05-2008 10:15 AM

A green body on a CitiCar would be something else, Ryland. Like the old Hemp Ford I've seen pics of.

TomEV: small world - I'd already watched your C-Car vid on youtube before you joined the forum. Right away I thought... I don't hear contactors :)

Bennelson: that's right - I use the transmission's reverse.

Ryland 02-05-2008 12:28 PM

It's hard to get the camera in for a good angle of the motor plate, but I can read most of it I'm pretty sure it's the stock 36v GE motor, 3,200rpm, 98amp.

I want to check over all of the wiring befor hooking up a big battery pack as there is some mouse damage on the main battery cable, but middle cable is there with the wire going to the gauge as well, the key switch is missing the key and the switch was disconnected when I got it so I need to check on what kind of load that switch gets for replacing it, it's a collage town so I don't want to leave it parked on city streets with just a togle switch.

I thought about doing fiberglass over foam, and I might still do that, but cotton over basswood or birch plywood might be fun, I have also been informed that real hide glue is often used as a base on canves for painting, looked at a painting that was done this way and it seeme to make it reasonably stiff and cheap, figure a few layers of UV filtering urithane floor finish will keep it safe, at this point it would be a vehicle body that could have been made 100 years ago...
I'm also getting a phone call tomarrow from my current favorit battery supplier about some NiCad batteries, I asked enough questions, and it's their slow time of year so the guy in charge of batteries at the golf car repair place is going to search for a supplier of the NiCad's, less weight and longer life.

bennelson 02-05-2008 06:20 PM

I got to go see a Zap Zebra electric car today.

The rear axel setup looks to be exactly the same as the Citicar.

http://web.mac.com/benhdvideoguy/iWe...s/DSC05609.jpg

It uses an Alltrax 72 volt programmable controller, but I am not sure at how many amps.

This dealer added another battery in so he has 84 volts for more speed. He said the controller had no problem with this.

The batteries are in a tube inside the car in a box with a bolt down lid, and a few more batteries in back.

This Zap is a three wheeler, so it is technically a motorcycle, thus avoiding NEV laws and limits on speed.

I have a couple more photos on my photo page

TomEV 02-05-2008 10:41 PM

For the key switch, you won't need much more than 10 amps. The only items running through the switch are the contactor coils, and some other low-amperage items. the contactor coils draw about 6 amps max (Reverse, S/P and in 'second' or 'third' is the highest load - but unusual for longer than a second or so unless you like to drive around backwards at high speed... they go as fast in reverse as they go forward!)

The headlights, brake lights and turn signals aren't switched by the key (the windshield might be, depending on which system you have - some ran from the 18v bus).

The switch is only an on/off - no accessory or 'start' position. There are 10 and 20 amp key switches on amazon for reference, (they look a bit big in diameter for this application) but you can probably find one faster as a local boat store or maybe a auto parts store.

MetroMPG 02-12-2008 09:45 PM

Found on ABG today: eBay find of the day: Electric Citicar

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.au.../02/dffb_1.jpg

New batteries, new PWM controller, 4000 miles and $2500 Buy it Now...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1975-...em180213685850

Be interesting to see what happens. I'll be watching!

Ryland 02-12-2008 11:42 PM

I saw that citicar on Ebay as well, they come up now and then, I hate buying things like cars that I can't look at first, and then there is the matter of shiping it.

Ryland 02-27-2008 01:42 AM

Title!
 
I got a phone call this evening to tell me that the title for my citicar has been found! it's currently in the hand of the brother of the guy I got the citicar from, signed and everything! this is what I have been waiting for, as I wasn't going to spend money on this project if I couldn't have it leagly on the road, nothing like spending $800 on batteries then finding out that I can't take it past the end of the driveway!
Been spending a bit of time gluing the ABS plastic body back together with PlastiWeld bumper epoxy and fiber glass fabric, it seems to hold ok, been also thinking about building a plywood body for it out of 1/8" birch plywood like is used for modle aeroplanes, altho 1/4" birch is more commen and cheaper.

SVOboy 02-27-2008 02:51 AM

Sweet luck! I can't wait to see picture of you driving around in the sucker. :)

MetroMPG 02-27-2008 08:40 AM

Definitely good news for all involved, including us spectators following the restoration.

MetroMPG 04-02-2008 09:39 PM

So, any updates? Now that you've got the title, have you dived in to the restoration deep end?

Ryland 04-03-2008 12:42 AM

I haven't gotten very far, I have all kinds of excuses! work picked up a bit, spent a number of days trying to relearn the art of making glass marbles, then I've also been selling off vehicles that I don't need any more (old zap E-bike, Puch moped, Yamaha R5, vw rabbit) to make a better budget to buy ANTHER ELECTRIC CAR! this time a CommutiCar (similar to the CitiCar, only newer), I'll have that home Friday, took it for a test drive last weekend, it's pretty! 2,800 miles, was owned by the HMV FreeWay so they could do tests and research with it, apparently they traded one of the 4 electric HMV FreeWays ever built to the CommutiCar company to get this thing, so it's been stored in side it's whole life, has 2 year old batteries that are in ok shape, the gauges have some loose wires so that is the first thing to fix, but everything else appears to work fine, so I should have it on the road in about a week.
my Citicar... the garage is still cramped "because there is mud in the driveway" so I haven't gotten any work done on the brakes yet, then I plan to work on the body, then the drive train, the motor runs if hooked to 12v battery, but the body is going to take a good amount of time.

MetroMPG 04-03-2008 09:13 AM

Wow. That ComutaCar sounds like an awesome find!

I was talking about these cars at our latest EV group meeting. Someone wanted to build a car with equivalent performance to the ForkenSwift, and I said it's too bad there were so few C-Cars imported to Canada, because it'd be easier and probably cheaper to pick up one of them than to do a conversion with equivalent performance.

Plus you could even argue that a C-Car in good condition is a better investment than a cheap Metro conversion.

Looking forward to pics & details.

Ryland 08-30-2008 07:15 PM

I had a few days off from work so i doe in to the citi-car.
Replaced the brake line running to the rear of the car, replaced the brake light switch, replaced the rear end gear oil, replaced the key switch, sanded all of the contacts on all of the relays (looks to have sat out in the weather for a few years), re-attached one of the silver contacts on the forward-reverse relay, filed them to get rid of the pitting, put them back together with new brass nuts, copper washers and dielectric grease on the main connections, wrapped alot of mouse damaged wires with tape, traced down and labeled all of the wires that hook to lights in the body (the body is not on the car and the wires are all faded to gray), dropped two 12v batteries in and hooked them up to alow me to test the drive train and all the lights work other then the cabin light, the forward and reverse speeds all work, the brakes kind of work in the rear, the windshield wiper motor works, I still need to build a body, fix the brakes more, fix the hand brake, find a wiper arm, and buy batteries for it, if I really wanted to I'm sure I could take it for a drive down the street but I don't have any lights on it and it looks kind of like a dune buggy without a body, next step in the plan is to get some LED lights so I have them when I start on the body, as the original lights are rusted up and some are missing.
current plans with the body is to check in to some 1/16" maple veneer like what they make skate board decks out of, it can be molded and glued to be a shaped plywood, otherwise I was thinking coroplast, or fabric.


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