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-   -   1992 Metro sedan needs a new engine - What/Where/How - advice appreciated greatly! (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/1992-metro-sedan-needs-new-engine-what-where-4170.html)

Crono 07-30-2008 12:12 AM

1992 Metro sedan needs a new engine - What/Where/How - advice appreciated greatly!
 
Hi, I'm new to posting on this forum, though I've been reading it extensively for a couple of days now. I find the material fascinating, and I was initially surprised that there were actually other people out there who were really mindful of fuel economy.

So, onto my current situation: I recently bought a 1992 Geo Metro, (4 door manual transmission) which had a recently rebuilt engine. Spent a decent amount of money fixing it up, (bearings, exhaust, brakes) and took it on a road trip through the mountains and back, and it started acting up and died shortly after I got home. Took it to a mechanic and he said that something had not been done properly in the rebuild (something to do with the timing belt) and, for lack of better understanding on my part there was something to do with pulleys, the crankshaft and a big enough mess on the bottom of the engine that it wasn't really even rebuildable.

I've looked into a few options from getting a used engine (seems iffy unless one gets lucky) to getting a remanufactured/rebuilt engine, to even going electric. Due to some of the setbacks of electric (particularly range and winter issues) I've decided against that, and now I'm considering my options and I am looking for a little advice, with a couple of questions in mind:

I'm pretty sure I do not currently have the xfi engine. (I don't think it even comes in the sedan) How much would I need to change if I put one in? According to Custom 1,621 is the curb weight of an xfi and 1,694 is the weight of my sedan (a regular coupe metro is 1,650). So, if it is relatively simple to plop an xfi engine in, I'm assuming that 73lbs isn't going to be the end of the world. Just seems like it's worth it if I'm looking at picking up the 15% or so increase I've heard one can expect from an xfi. I frequently drive around with between 1 and 4 passengers (I installed an extra seatbelt) but the previous engine seemed to do fine even at full load. (It just drives like the automatic does without passengers)

Second question - what would be the best option in terms of an engine? Should I hunt around for a used engine, or should I shell out for a rebuilt or remanufactured engine? I've done a little googling and found a few sites offering remanufactured engines ranging from $1200-$1500. Time is also an issue, because I'm not really in a situation where I can wait for a good deal to pop up. (I'm not very mechanical myself, and my father will be visiting me for two weeks coming up pretty soon and has offered to help if I can get something together.) Also, I live in Canada, so it would always be a little bonus to deal with a Canadian company to avoid duty/border stuff, but that's not something that need necessarily be the case.

I definitely want to set this thing up to get good mileage, and obviously getting the right engine is going to be a very important part of that, so I want to get off on the right foot.

me and my metro 07-30-2008 12:26 AM

Mike's Automotive Services in Sequim WA. just across the pond from you. advertises on Seattle Craigs list auto parts section for metro engine repair. I have never contacted them but their prices seem reasonable. (360) 681-0758

Crono 07-30-2008 12:31 AM

In my case, however, I would need an entirely separate engine. But, since it sounds like they specialize in Metro repair, it would make sense that they would also have whole engines. I'll give them a call tomorrow. Any other thoughts? (Particularly about the xfi thing)

gwahir 07-30-2008 02:58 AM

You might want to get a second mechanic's opinion on your 'dead' engine.

Johnny Mullet 07-30-2008 06:45 AM

I agree with qwahir. Unless the engine actually "exploded" into tiny pieces, it is repairable. Get a second opinion! Even if the timing belt broke, these engines are non-interference.

Crono 07-30-2008 04:17 PM

Well, it certainly didn't explode into tiny pieces, however, there is apparently a big hole in the bottom of the engine where the crankshaft comes out, and I think there were some other pieces completely missing, or badly disfigured. He said that technically it would be repairable with some JB weld and a bit of tinkering or something to that effect, but that it wouldn't be something that would necessarily last very long, so it didn't sound like a good idea. I could possibly try to get some pictures, though I'm not 100% sure where to look since my mechanical knowledge is pretty much limited to tightening belts and changing spark plugs...

I could get my dad to take a look at the damage, but if I wanted to get a second opinion from a mechanic, I'd be looking at another pair of $50 (Well, that's the minimum...) towing charges. (I guess that's not much in comparison to the cost of an engine though)

gwahir 07-30-2008 06:05 PM

You can actually see a hole in the side of the block? That does sound rather terminal. But how that could be caused by anything having to do with the timing belt....?

gwahir 07-30-2008 06:15 PM

On the other hand, if the bolt that holds the lower timing belt pully to the crankshaft was not tightened properly, it could waller out and pretty much bring the whole program to a halt; mucking up the end of the crankshaft. This happens sometimes with Geo Trackers. The redneck solution is to weld the pully right to the crankshaft. You may not want to go there, but you have little to loose.

atomicradish 07-30-2008 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Mullet (Post 49103)
I agree with qwahir. Unless the engine actually "exploded" into tiny pieces, it is repairable. Get a second opinion! Even if the timing belt broke, these engines are non-interference.

Really? The timing belt broke on my dad's Metro, and he says the engine now needs completely rebuilt. I know he put a new timing belt in and he still could not get it to go.

Crono 07-30-2008 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwahir (Post 49317)
On the other hand, if the bolt that holds the lower timing belt pully to the crankshaft was not tightened properly, it could waller out and pretty much bring the whole program to a halt; mucking up the end of the crankshaft. This happens sometimes with Geo Trackers. The redneck solution is to weld the pully right to the crankshaft. You may not want to go there, but you have little to loose.

This is sounding very much like what my mechanic told me, actually. (Including the part about how I ~could~ patch it together but probably shouldn't) He basically said things were disfigured badly enough that you couldn't really tell how they were originally.

Johnny Mullet 07-30-2008 08:54 PM

In that case, I would find a replacement engine for it.

Crono 07-30-2008 09:57 PM

This is what I had initially thought when posting this thread, and have been looking into a few options insofar as what kind of replacement engine I should get.

I'm hoping that someone around might know of a reputable company that sells reasonably priced rebuilds/remanucatered engines. (Or, if anyone knows of anyone looking to sell a decent condition used 1.0L) I'm hoping for an xfi, but beggars can't be choosers...

Johnny Mullet 07-30-2008 10:45 PM

Engines, jdm, diesel engines, jdm engines, japanese engines, japanese motors

metroschultz 07-31-2008 01:29 AM

Used motor
 
Since it sounds like the motor threw a rod out the side of your block,
which is probably NOT timing belt related,
but,
could be related to the re-man that was performed (incorrect torque on the rods or mains, forgetting to tighten the oil pump pick up tube, or any number of other reasons)
I would suggest a gently used motor.

I like this website

Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market

They have thousands of bone yards on the list and you can find one near your house or get something shipped to you from Mexico, or Canada, or South Carolina.

Engine swap on a Metro is fairly easy and straight forward.
You don't really need a hoist if you don't have one.
just be sure all the other fluids are drained first.
and remove all the pulleys on the front of the motor to give you room to pass the clutch.

I am in the process of thrashing mine right now.
keep us posted,
Schultz

Tango Charlie 07-31-2008 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metroschultz (Post 49469)
I like this website

Car-Part.com--Used Auto Parts Market

They have thousands of bone yards on the list and you can find one near your house or get something shipped to you from Mexico, or Canada, or South Carolina.
Schultz

Awesome link! Thanks! :thumbup:

gwahir 07-31-2008 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crono (Post 49349)
This is sounding very much like what my mechanic told me, actually. (Including the part about how I ~could~ patch it together but probably shouldn't) He basically said things were disfigured badly enough that you couldn't really tell how they were originally.

Yup. It might be hard to get the pully/crankshaft positioned exactly for the weld, but you may luck out and save your rebuilt engine. That is significant! Be sure the weld ground goes to the pully and not to the block. You dont want to be pulling juice through the bearings. If it works, you are golden. If it does not work, replace the crankshaft and the pully, which you would have to do anyway.You own a 92 geo. You are, therefore, a defacto geo mechanic. Get a manual. Get four wrenches; 10, 12, 14, and 17mm. Get dirty. This is not for the timid.
If you want an XFI engine, get your camshaft reground to XFI specs. That is the only significant difference. And you can change it yourself.
I'd sure not buy another engine prior to exhausting possibilities with this one.

lovemysan 07-31-2008 02:26 PM

CarPart.com - Quality Automotive Parts at Wholesale Prices

put in your information and what you want. Then places that have one will send you info and prices. Include your zipcode and specify you want a shipping price.

I prefer a used engine over over rebuilt personally. An engine assembled from all new parts in a factory is generally better than one assembled on a dirty workbench from new and used parts.

MetroMPG 07-31-2008 09:54 PM

Another possible place to look for an engine: TeamSwift for sale & wanted subforums.

me and my metro 08-01-2008 01:08 AM

Delta Camshaft in Tacoma can regrind your old stock cam for $50 to exact xfi specs. hope this helps. btw I have been able to buy several core engines for $50 to $100 here in Oregon. You might check Craigs list for rusty cars in Vancouver for cheap.

Crono 08-01-2008 10:35 PM

Thanks for all the pointers, everyone. For now I'm going to wait until my dad comes (Sunday) and take a look at it with him to see if it may in fact be salvageable. I'm pretty sure I don't have a rod out the side of my engine, so it may in fact be salvagable? I'll see if I can post pictures of the damage when I get out to take a look at it, anyway.

Crono 08-06-2008 01:15 PM

Ok, so my dad's here and he went out and took a look at things. I think I also have a little better idea of what went wrong. Basically, something wasn't rebuilt right with the crankshaft, something of a wrong size (key?) was put on somewhere, and at a certain point it kept spinning but didn't spin anything but itself because it had worn out due to the wrong size, and a bunch of stuff kind of got wratched up as a result.

We're going to try some kind of patch job on this in the next day or two here to see if we can get it running again, I'll see if I can get some pictures of the damage to clarify for lack of my better choice of words.

One thing I'm wondering is if anybody could tell me which cylinder is the #1 on this car? (If you're facing from the front of the car?)

gwahir 08-06-2008 06:42 PM

The left one. Also on the passanger side front of the engine you will see a two bolt motor mount. Pad a floor jack, place it under the oil pan, and then remove those two bolts. You will then be able to lower the engine and see your area of concern through the wheel well.

Crono 08-09-2008 12:04 PM

Alright, so we JB welded the outside gear onto the crankshaft (that was what had stopped working because there was a wrong-sized key or something like that, not sure) and have put it back together...only problem now is that the pulley which holds the alternator belt is kind of wobbly. Not sure if the gear at the bottom isn't on straight or if the pulley somehwere along the way got warped. Anyway, other than that it runs pretty nicely, sounds good and everything, but might have to tinker around with the timing a little still.

Once this thing is for sure running properly, I'll worry a little more about other ecomods. The fact that it's JB welded together makes me a little hesitant to put too much work into it though. (Maybe if it's not in the engine department)

If I were to get an engine rebuilt for this thing, would there be anything I could change "while I'm at it" in order to make it better on gas afterwards?

gwahir 08-09-2008 09:38 PM

Ya dun gud. Kudos to you and your dad. Perfect alignment of you jbed part would be difficult, but if it runs, it is better than not running! The 'repair' didn't cost much and the experience is educational. I am not sure about the jbed solution compared to a real weld, but lets see how it goes.
Higher compression (shaved head) might help gas milage, although others here would know more than I do about that. XFI regrind on the cam works well, and you can move the cam to any future engine.

Johnny Mullet 08-09-2008 10:36 PM

So I presume the shear pin (key) was not inserted right or broke and this caused the crank to wear the main pulley or even wore the crankshaft end. Using JB Weld to fill in the worn area is not really a permanent fix in my opinion, but who knows! I am guessing the other part is wobbly because maybe you guys did not get it centered perfectly, but I would run the thing till it goes again and that could be a long time. It looked like this.........................

http://www.tamparacing.com/photopost/data/500/2212.JPG

http://www.tamparacing.com/photopost...ous_Owner_.JPG

Another thing you could do is make a new keyway 180 degrees from the original with a dremel tool or die grinder and mount the gear 180 off, but that would require some precise measurements.

In the meantime, maybe locate a crankshaft, main and rod bearings,crank pulley, seals, gaskets, etc so you have the stuff you need on hand.

99metro 08-11-2008 09:47 AM

If you do decide to go JDM (replacement motor) in the future, Nippon Motors has them. I got mine about 40k miles ago and still going strong. Yes, I put the older engine in it in a newer Metro.

Nippon Motors

The engine prices have gone up since I bought mine 2 years ago - was $295, now $395. Still worth it since engine parts can add up when you buy them separate for rebuilding.

Christ 11-18-2008 01:42 AM

Nippon-motors.com The engine code is G10 from Suzuki for the 3 cylinder, G16 for the 4 cylinder.

PS, if you wanted, you could sell the pistons from that engine, if they're useable. Honda guys eat them up for turbo pistons, since they pretty much drop into D-series honda engines (all Civic 88-99, basically) and lower the compression substantially. They use the Vitara's pistons, but the Vitara uses the G16 engine, and the G10 is the same piston, just one less cylinder and a diff stroke.

Also, in fixing your crankshaft issue, open the keyway for the stupid little key thing up to the next size before inserting it... worst case scenario, you screw up a bit and you're off .5*... which won't make a comprehensible difference.


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