2001 Honda Insight IMA Battery Questions
 

Hello!!!!

I just picked up a Honda insight after reading the forums here for a good two years. I was previously driving a C5 Corvette as my daily and averaging around 25-30 mpg actually which is not that bad for a super car. Going from a vette to an insight is like riding a turtle.... :turtle:

The battery on this insight was apparently replaced at 140k miles and it now is completely dead at 177k miles, i only spent 1000 dollars on the vehicle because of this :):):):)

Im going to be buying a Bumblebee battery replacement for the vehicle and i sure hope that will last a bit longer since it is advertised at 30% longer life than OEM.

My question is why do these batteries die so fast and how can i make them last longer?

Thanks!

Welcome to the site He-man.

I admit I did chuckle when I heard the previous vs current car. :)

I'll let people better versed in the Honda hybrid packs answer your question.

That battery died prematurely. In the south, you can probably expect 10 years, and in the north, perhaps 15+ years out of an IMA battery. Heat exposure, and to a lesser degree, age, are what kill these batteries, not miles.

There are different degrees of dead, too. Do you get any assist at all? Does it start using the noisy backup starter, or do you not hear a starter when you turn the key (indicating it's using the IMA)?

If it's not too far gone, you can possibly resurrect it and get a few months to a few years out of it by buying/building a grid charger. I assembled one for myself for ~$30.

When you do get a new battery, I'd suggest grid charging it 2-4x per year to keep the cells in balance (don't do it more frequently as you can lower its life expectancy by frequently overcharging), and avoiding baking it.

I still have the Vette but, being environmentally conscious, i wanted something better on fuel. When i was test driving the car it was such a strange experience and i couldn't stop laughing it was so slow and dinky. But i love the car and even with just the gas engine i still got around 80 on the drive home on the freeway going 50-55. :)

I have a couple trickle chargers, will those work? Or do i need to buy one from eBay or something?

Can you give me a parts list for the 30 dollar grid charger?

That's kinda funny, too!

Hey, I'm a funny guy ;)

You can find the details in the build thread linked in my signature. Start on page 8:

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...d-29288-8.html

You'll be building a trickle charger, but it needs to be able to provide at least 180v DC @ 350ma or less, and you'll also want to power the 12v cooling fan for the battery while you're doing this.

The units available on eBay sometimes have the ability to discharge your battery and then charge it to full, which gives a slightly more thorough balance, but you can do that yourself with an incandescent lightbulb, and I don't think it's helpful or even good for a battery that isn't on its last legs.

Is there anywhere that i can buy the cells for the battery separate from buying a whole battery? If i test all the cells and find a few that are bad where can i buy new cells? Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here you go: https://hybridautomotive.com/collect...ioning-package

Just get that, install it, do 2 discharge/recharge cylces.

First one to 130v, then recharge for ~18 hours.

Second one discharge to 60v, recharge for ~28 hours.

If the previous owner didn't use a grid charger on the pack, I figure you have about a 90-95% chance the pack will come back to life.

You'd need special hardware to test each cell. Something like a super brain 989:

super brain 989 | eBay

I expect you could get cells on eBay, but that's pretty sketchy and they would probably not survive the first time you pressed on the brakes. A better way would be to contact Eli over at InsightCentral - he's the guy behind BumbleBee Batteries. I'm sure he'd be happy to sell you a few good sticks.

Better to try grid charging first though, and see what you can get out of the pack. If you don't feel comfortable building a charger, get the one Balto linked. You'll want a charger for battery maintenance, even if you end up replacing the battery.

I can vouch for the grid charger & discharge harness.That's the same grid charger I use, and mine is also set up for discharge. I use a 2-light discharger and use 200 watt lights in both sockets, though.

I was a little more aggressive on the discharge (well, more like ALOT more aggressive) than what Balto suggests, and only discharged/grid charged once, but I did it before Thanksgiving and my IMA system has functioned perfectly since then.

I would recommend disabling the big battery if it doesn't come back after a grid charge and getting in on the situation below (next november)

Focus Group: Which Drop-In Lithium Cells to Use - Insight Central: Honda Insight Forum

Reading the above has sort of stopped me in my tracks of replacing the stock battery with a 25ahr NiMH battery.

Ah well, good luck.

Here is the problem, the replacement batteries were not new cells, eventually the age factor gets to them, but that's just my opinion.

Mine was replaced under warranty and I sold the car before it gave out again. The bumble bee may be the best option, but even better would be the knowledge, a source of replacement cells, and a charger to keep them balanced.

regards
mech

IMA battery was not actually bad after all. The kid sold the car to me less than 10 days ago for 1000 because he thought the IMA battery was bad since Honda said that the battery was bad. He showed me a print out and everything. I was looking around under the hood and noticed two short wires under the air intake box. One was extremely frayed, at least half was gone, and the other was completely severed. Bought two thick battery wires, thicker than the ones that were on the car, and new bolts and replaced them and took the car for a drive and the car started charging the IMA battery and now the IMA has a full charge and i have access to full assist.

I still ordered the grid charger though.

A note to anybody who is told by any mechanic, Honda certified or not, that they need a new IMA battery PERSONALLY look at the wires under the intake box to check the condition. If they are in bad condition or you can see any deterioration replace them and then check the car again. I almost dropped over 2 grand for something that didn't need to be replaced.

All in all it cost me under $15 to fix the car with parts from auto zone and 15 minutes of my time to install.

Nice. These cars usually need a rear engine mount eventually, and when it goes, the movement of the engine in the bay can damage the ground straps, as you've found.

Glad you found a cheap fix!

So i should be checking the engine mounts then, sweet thanks for the info!

Also, I'm only getting about 60 mpg on the freeway on a good day, is that me or the car? I feel like a lot of people on here get more mpg. I have been needing to adjust to the low hp of this vehicle coming from a 400+hp vette it seems hard to keep the 60-70hp insight at a constant speed. I feel cruise control will help a lot on the freeway.

You can install an aftermarket cruise control.

Your MPG will depend on your cruise speed. In mine, I can expect (very roughly) 100mpg at 50mph, 75mpg at 65mph, and 60mpg at 75mph.

EDIT: My economy has been low recently due to subzero winter weather, snow tires, slush and snow on the roads, etc.

What did you get before your mods?

Mine isn't very heavily modded, and I didn't thoroughly document its economy before I started tinkering, but I want to say that, with the A/C running and doing ~70-75 on the highway, I got around 50mpg on my trip home from buying it.

Slowing down a little bit on the highway has really resulted in more fuel saved than all of my mods put together. It's also a much more pleasant ride, as things get quieter at 60-65.

Because this thread was entitled "Questions" (plural)... I have a question!

I've been eyeballing getting an Insight for the last year. I think I'm going to save up and get one as the wife and I would like to have a backup vehicle (but this would likely become my daily driver over my Neon). In my case, this is 99% City driving (rural area, so no real traffic to deal with.)

I'm comparing with and without the battery here... What kind of MPG difference are we talking? I know it's got variables, but I'm trying to decide if it's worth the $2k for a new battery pack or not. If not, I'd likely remove as much of the system as possible to reduce weight for better acceleration and MPG (as "umph" lacks w/o the IMA syste, so I hear).

That rings in another question: I know the battery pack can be removed if you put one of the circuit boards back in (I've seen this in passing), but what about the rest of the system? I don't mind a project if it pulls out some decent weight.

Thanx!

I don't think the battery is very heavy...? The cells are maybe 50-60lbs, and the entire module in the back of the car is maybe a bit over 100? So, less than a person in the passenger seat. However, recovering some of the space used by the battery systems could be nice. The battery area really has a LOT of dead space, and if you could pull that out, you'd gain a lot of cargo space.

In terms of fuel economy, I'd say very little - the IMA is more about making the car awesome than more efficient.

The economy argument:

When cruising on the highway, if you need to climb a mild incline or pass, the IMA system allows the engine to stay in a peak-BSFC RPM range, rather than needing to downshift, which DOES save fuel. Same with accelerating - you can keep the revs low and shift early while still accelerating at a reasonable rate, which saves fuel. On the flip side, any energy you use will need to be recharged later, and not all of it will be from regenerative braking; sometimes these cars will slowly background-charge while driving around to make up for an unequal amount of energy spent vs recovered in deceleration, and it's a little lossy converting from mechanical to electrical energy, putting that energy in a battery that has internal resistance and slowly self-discharges, and then converting from electrical, back to mechanical energy. Why have the IMA then? My argument is that you get the same economy of a 3 cylinder, with the acceleration of a 4 cylinder. When the IMA goes, you don't lose the economy, just the extra torque.

If you're frequently sitting at stop lights, auto-stop can potentially save you fuel, but a lot of hyper-milers will shut their engines off coasting up to and while sitting at a stoplight anyway. If you're not the type to shut your engine off frequently, the IMA could save you fuel in city driving.

Awesomeness: It's really cool to be able to kill the engine while coasting down a hill, and then when you drop it back in gear, have the engine spring back to life automatically from the IMA. It's awesome that when your wife/friend/whoever is driving the car and they stall it, the IMA motor brings the engine back to life, or they can even just mash the petal to the floor and accelerate anyway, even after stalling the engine. It's awesome to have all of the torque that the IMA brings, down at 0RPM - I find the Insight quite fun to drive, compared with other economy cars I've driven. It's really great to have a car that has a highly efficient electric motor in place of a lossy alternator - though you'll still have this feature even if you do an IMA delete.

I think you can have your battery refurbished for as little as $500. Sometimes all it needs is one or two cells, and sometimes you can get lucky enough to rejuvenate a weak or "dying" battery with a grid charger you built for $30 from LED power supplies you bought on eBay.

I'd much rather have an Insight with a working IMA than not, but it has little to do with economy.

EDIT: If you get one with a weak or dead battery, I wouldn't get a normal replacement, I'd do what rmay635703 has suggested:


^ Getting a set of Nissan Leaf lithium cells in this car would allow for HOURS of continuous assist, and the ability to charge it up at home, rather than the ~10 minutes of continuous assist (tops) you would get with a replacement NiMH battery.

Thanks Ecky. I got the chance to test drive one a few weeks ago and it was pretty much what you said: Not necessary, but overall driving enjoyment and ease is much increased with it! I liked it as it was very similar in feel to my Neon in terms of the driving experience (minus the power... my Neon has a lot more go, as expected of double the engine size!) but the clutch, transmission, steering, seating, etc. was all familiar.

I liked it enough that I'm going to go look at another one today and hopefully purchase. I'll be in the Portland area in a few weeks and have already contacted Bumblebee to see about doing a pickup/exchange onsite (Would be using my Neon, but have the old IMA pack with me). So I'm obviously sold on the idea. ;)