2011 Green Grand Prix: Fri., April 15 (Watkins Glen, NY)
 

http://www.greengrandprix.com/images/ggpheader.gif

The announcement for the Watkins Glen Green Grand Prix event came out today and there are some interesting changes for 2011. Namely, the 70+ mile loop around Seneca Lake for the fuel mileage contest has changed in a big way. This just in from event chairman Bob Gillespie:

2011 Green Grand Prix
We are excited to announce that the 2011 Green Grand Prix will be held at the Watkins Glen International race complex. Our annual competitive events will take place entirely on the world famous Grand Prix short course. We expect to host 2 separate fuel economy events: one for present and past production vehicles and another for experimental vehicles. There will be many categories of competiton quite similar to last year’s. TBA.

We will also have an Electrathon race. Our video contest will be expanded. All this will take place on Friday, April 15, 2011. Details to follow.

Entries will be accepted through our Welcome To The Official Green Grand Prix Web Site website starting sometime in January.

Thank you for your past support of the Green Grand Prix and we hope to see you this Spring!

Wishing you a healthy and safe Holiday Season,

Bob Gillespie

Chairman; Green Grand Prix Committee IMRRC

Welcome To The Official Green Grand Prix Web Site

315-694-2812

Wow, that should be interesting!

I'm going :)

That sounds cool, I'm excited! I'm looking forward to seeing more details, I wonder how many laps -- and how fast?

Just saw it in my emails. A FE challenge on a closed course! Look out for record breaking numbers! And this is not an oval, pick your line and get your pulses right, this is going to be really fun.

I'm eager to learn about the distance/time details.

See you there!

Martin

Get ready for some 100MPG+ numbers.

Yeah, the short course (that apparently what will be used) is pretty flat, so the numbers could be high. Still, I love the "Boot" section of the long course with all it's vertical changes, I'd be doing some "quiet coasting" ;) on that part!

Count me in!

http://www.na-motorsports.com/Tracks.../glen/elev.gif

"The Boot" looks like fun, but really bad for the mpg. It's a slow corner at the bottom of a hill that people would be tempted to take fast.

Has anyone confirmed that the former "public roads" challenge will be on the course? I can see an electrathon competition there...

I'm sure the rally (T.S.D.) will continue as usual...

Anyway, exciting :)

Interesting elevation map, thanks Matt. To be clear though, the short course chops off the "Boot" section. The short course is what the Nextel Cup stock cars run on and looks like this:

http://www.google.com/url?source=img...YLHWMpI2tGFC6g

As you can see, there is a connector that can be used to eliminate the Boot.

Aerial view:

http://www.google.com/url?source=img...yDgAQI2KAGFy7w

Hello Darin,

No I haven't but it seems pretty clear to me from Bob's statement: "Our annual competitive events will take place entirely on the world famous Grand Prix short course." I agree that if the local "Glen Region" chapter of the SCCA is once again going to do a road rally in conjunction with the GGP event, that their course would still be on public roads.

Although it would likely be beyond the scope of what the GGP organizers have in mind, I just wanted to add that a closed course event like this would be a perfect venue to adapt some 1 gallon auxiliary fuel cells to the competitors cars. Yes, I know I'm dreaming......

Mike

That would solve the perennial "was that fill really accurate?" debate, wouldn't it?

We should ask Bob to spell out in advance which fuel measuring techniques will be acceptable.

Any device that counts fuel injector pulses like an MPGuino or a factory mpg gauge should be allowed, as long as it's calibrated honestly. A device like a ScanGauge that estimates fuel consumption by watching the onboard sensors won't be 100% accurate, but would be more plausible than some of the fills we've seen at some of these events.

I'll be there one way or another! I might find it too frustrating to drive slowly around WGI. :D

I was thinking the same thing. :D

I'll bet Bob will have some "rules of the road" worked out for the event though.

Mike

Definitive:

+ 1 for accepting fuel data from an MPGuino or a factory installed mpg gauge. If not available, then measure at the pump. Both fills should be all the way, till you can see it in the neck.

I'd like to see more miles in the challenge. An approx. 80 mile loop (last year's run) needs under 2 gallons, so any small error in measuring fuel consumption is magnified. I'd be fine with 100-125 miles, just speaking for myself of course.

Does anybody have access to accurate electronic scales? Weighing in and weighing out along with the fill volume could be very accurate?

Neil,

Edited. I had the logic of this idea wrong-way around when I first wrote this response. My apologies.

Any weight reduction would be interpreted as fuel consumption so tossing any weight would give an apparent increase in consumption. Acquiring extra weight would "game" the system but that shouldn't be a problem on a closed course.

Give every driver a few bottles of water before the weigh in.

wikipedia says gasoline weighs 6.073 lb/US galGasoline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A google search gave me 6.175 lb/US gallon. It does vary with temperature - so therefore the weight of the gasoline is actually a more meaningful measure of fuel quantity than the volume.

The idea has potential, but you do need a very accurate scale of the right capacity.

Watch for updated on line registration form
 

Re. on line registration form for this year's GGP: See Bob's note on that at the end of this post. The form should be up in a few weeks.

Below is a note I received today from Bob Gillespie, posted here with his kind permission:

Good to hear from you.
The Short Course will be great fun. The fact of it is; EVERYBODY loves driving on this track that has so much history.

The fuel metering issue..
We just have to keep trying to do it better. We will come closer this year. The matter is being discussed by our committee, but we certainly invite all ideas, like the MPGuino method you wrote about.

Looking forward to a great event in April with as many Ecomodders as possible- you guys are an important part of our Green Grand Prix. The correct online registration form should be up within a few weeks. Please spread the word. I will let you know when it's ready.

Bob Gillespie
Welcome To The Official Green Grand Prix Web Site

Update: Newest Email from Bob
Pricey pricey this year, and we don't even get to drive fast!

100mi in 2hr sounds pretty fast to me. There are corners, which I suspect we'll need to slow down for.

So, now the question is, do you want the afternoon slot where the temperatures are more favorable, or the morning slot where you get twice as many laps? Btw, how many laps is 100mi of the "short course"?

Also, is there a lower price available to EcoModders, who are often very interested in saving not just fuel but also money?

You slow down for corners?? :)

Anyway, this reference says the short course at Watkins Glen is 2.45 miles.
Tracks - MotorRacingNetwork.com

I just noticed the typo in the GGP schedule as shown two posts back in this thread. The 1-hour event must end at 11:45 A.M., not P.M. If ending at 11:45 p.m. it would be a 13 hour event! Hopefully by the time you see this, the typo will be fixed.

Looks like fuel consumption will be measured by racing scales, with the exception of hybrids , plug-in hybrids & EV's.

I'm not sure why non-plug-in cars shouldn't also go by the weighing method...

I was super pumped for this at the racetrack, but I'm just now realizing that it's on a Friday. Not sure if I'll be able to make it this year, I just started a new job, so I'll have to talk to my boss about it.

Hopefully I'll be able to make it, should be lots of fun!

McTimson, I sure hope you can make it!

This just in from Bob Gillespie:
About the "Other" Category... I don't like this. I don't believe anything about production should qualify a vehicle for the "Other" category. With the criteria and the given example of the Gen 1 Insight and the Geo metro, most of the vehicles registering will be all thrown into the other category maybe even an Other-M (modified) category if Bob wants to add M to each category one of us wins :P. I don't mind the modified thing so much, but if Gen 1 Insights are no longer in production, nor are geo metros, then neither are Gen 1 and 2 Prius, any Saturns, Celicas, Paseos, Echos? (is a Yaris an Echo? Is an Echo a Tercel?). This leaves the regular gasoline 45+ EPA category pretty scarce. The Insight name is still in production...

I think this other category should be reserved for cars made from scratch because there's too much slippery argument to be made about what a "production" or "in production" vehicle is.

Well, I don't know about the categories, but I'm sure looking forward to taking part in what sounds like a great event.

With my crazy car ('65 Porsche with '85 VW diesel engine, running on bio-diesel) I don't have any idea where I'll wind up --

Maybe other/modified/bio-diesel ;)

Bob Gillespie has done a huge job organizing this event, and I hesitate to rethink it. But - I'm an incurable rethinker of just about everything I run across, so...

imho -
If EPA numbers determine categories, then out of production vehicles can be in their EPA-determined category, unless there's a strong reason to put them elsewhere.

Shucks - if ya start with maybe an EPA 20 mpg sports car, drop in a diesel and reconfigure everything and end up with a 50 or 100 mpg car - you're probably entitled to compete against other EPA 20 mpg cars. Just thinking into the keyboard here.

In this case, my car (built 1965) predates the EPA, so there is no "baseline" mpg to compare it to :confused:

Back in 1964, the "Road & Track" testers found a combined result of 25.9 mpg for my car in original configuration, I guess that's the best info available?

Since the driving portion of GGP is now on Friday, and the "expo" portion of the show is now on Saturday/Sunday, I wonder how many people have decided they are going to attend multiple days?

What I'm wondering is, how accurate and precise are those scales at a track?

I calculated that you need to detect a weight difference of about 4 oz or 1/4 lb, to detect a difference of about 1 mpg over a 100 mile run at approx 50 mpg.

Unfortunately that spreadsheet isn't here where I can get at it. I may be slightly mis-remembering some of the particulars - but I did end up with a delta of approx 4 oz. as being what you'd need to be able to detect.

:(, I just noticed that. I hope the weather is nice enough for camping, as the expo is usually at least as much fun as the competition.

Bruce, I have to suspect that the scales are more accurate than a pump, but less accurate than a calibrated mpguino.

Heh-heh - you mean more accurate than the fills we got at the 2010 GGP?

I don't expect to be there for the following days - sorry to say. Wife and I will turn it into a mini vacation and will be tourists for a while.

Three new items from Bob Gillespie, all welcome news imho.

First: Both the 50 and 100 mile competitions will start at the same time, with the 50-mile drivers simply stopping when they've completed their distance. There will be an interval delay between individual cars' actual start, similar to last year.

The start time will likely be later than originally scheduled, likely now at 9:30. The revised schedule is not yet fully finalized, to the best of my knowledge. The later start gives more time for vehicle inspections.

I also had asked Bob:
1) Can we store things at the track? Such as travel necessities, tools removed from car, etc. Answer: yes.

2) Would I be able to do an oil change before the competition? Answer: yes, before the car is weighed.

So, who's going this year?

A Kia Soul?!? What happened to the TDI?

I'm planning on it --

With my new Conti LRR 145/65/15 tires and four wheel skirts -- if I get them done in time ;)

Tom

Hello Martin,

I have to work on Fridays so I am out for this year. I'll miss not joining up with you all again this spring though!

Mike

Mike, that bites. I figure you'd probably do well in this format.

I'm considering going, but not competing.

Martin - you going? Carpool?

Honestly, I find April too early in the year, and doing it on a weekday is likely inconvenient for many.

Also, as much as a track day sounds like fun, I'd prefer to see an event on public roads where competitors have to behave "normally" (avg. speed) and take into account regular traffic.

Will use on-board mpg computers
 

A quote from the latest update from organizer Bob Gillespie:

"Determination of fuel economy results:

Hybrid vehicles and all having onboard computers will use them to determine mpgs.
Other vehicles will be weighed immediately before and after the rally to determine fuel use.

We post rally winners in all categories, the distance they traveled, and their mpgs on our website."