'85' VW Jetta WVO success
 

Hey folks, I've been on EcoModder for a while now, and pretty much quite the whole time too. Now it's time to show what I have learned and where I'm at.
Brief history: started hypermiling my stock (96?) Saturn SW1 and found that it was quite easy to reach 50+MPG. That what got me started. Something still tugged at me(my consience? i dunno) and said "good job, but you're still supporting OPEC, poluting, etc.."
Around this time I began collecting WVO from folks and began stock piling in hopes of one day (a) getting a diesel vehicle and (b) using WVO for 'other then vehicle' projects-i.e. oil burner boilers, kero heaters, etc.
Then I upgraded to a 93 Geo Metro, and found that I hardly had to do anything (hypermile-wise) to gain the same 50 MPG. With a little work I easily get 60+MPG. I've pondered EV-ing the car but for now I'm holding off. Batteries for EV applications just don't have what I need.
Roughly 3 years after I began collecting WVO (3-400 gallons) I finnally found a car that was suitable (affordable, and in some sort of good condition). A 1985 Volks Wagon Jetta, diesel engine, non turbo, was sold to me by an uncle of mine for $400. With little work I was able to inspect it here in PA, and then the proccess began....
Biodiesel production was my first choice, mainly from intimedation on the WVO front. After I found out what it meant to 'modify the engine' to run off WVO, as apposed to 'modify the fuel', I abandoned the biodiesel production.
SVO, WVO, WMO, WTO, any oil for that matter just needs to be 'viscus' enough and the diesel engine WILL burn it, AND operate normal!
SOOO, you just 'modify the fuel' -by means of chemical reactions, to form 'biodiesel' (which is as viscous as normal diesel, or close enough)
OORRRR you 'modify the engine' which means taking heat from your engine and using it to heat the filtered WVO(oil) till it's as viscous as diesel.
THE LATTER OF THE 2 WAS EASIEST FOR ME! it fit my application, and after a few years of learning/studying and checking out others progress I came to the conclusion that 'modifing my engine' is much more time saving, simpler-less equipment needed, lower cost ($.01/gallon).... also it's not at all anything new, it's just been surpressed information and misleading facts, half truths, and some lies.

Biodiesel advantages
-need only 1 tank on the automobile
-seems more like 'what the car should run on' since it shares many quilities of normal petrol diesel
-just pour it in your tank and go, mabey on an older car you'll have to replace rubber fuel lines, and the fueul filter, but then you just fill up and go.
-good for folks who can't use a wrech at all
dis advantages
-need atleast 1 water heater, several storage containers, a couple pumps, test equipment, just more processing equipment in general, compared to WVO
-Lye, sodium hydroxide... caustic chemicle in general, CAN be very dangerous.
-Methonal, well methanol is supposedly a chemical/alcohol that if spilled, even in small amounts, warrants a EPA clean up... there are procedures for the use of Ethanol, which is moonshine/pure alcohol/natural & safer, but it's a bit more involved and more complicated then Methanol use....
-all that is needed is a tank to store and settle WVO/oils, a pump/air compressor to force the dirty oil through a series of filters, and a tank to fill up. that's it... the 3 basic esentials of WVO productin/refinement
-free to collect, cheap to filter, only costs encured are: electric used for pump or air compressor, filters (vehicle, boiler fuel filters, etc.), low 1 time cost of "modifying the engine", and mabey containers to store WVO/oil in (if you can't find them for free)
-have to "modify" the engine, which is actually not very hard on most vehicles
-need 2 tanks, one for diesel, one for WVO
-Need to start the automobile on diesel, and need to turn off the car on diesel. you have to warm it up, and purge it out to ensure an easy normal start.
-if you can't afford the 'automatic' shutoff and purge system gadget, and you forget to switch back to diesel before letting the car sit for a while... well you only have to forget once to fix that! hahaha, it'll take a little while to start...

in my opinion, WVO has the better lists, so here's how i did it.
1. took my 'heater bypass' coolant line, cut it, and routed it through a heat exchanger.
(any cooant line will work BUT on a vehicle with a 'heater bypass' line, it is prefferable to tap in there. Reason is because this line will always heat up first to heat the engine, before sending heat to the cabin/driver's compartment)
the heat exchanger is out of a VW near the same year as mine, and it's used as a transmission fluid heat exchanger i believe.
2. i took the heat exchanger 'bolts' and threaded on standard IPS 90' elbows (with heat resistant epoxy), and out of those 90's i threaded barb fittings for my fuel lines
3. found a spot under the hood to install a tank, made a card board mock up, traced it onto sheet steel, folded it up like an origammi cube and welded it shut.
4. then i cut out holes for the fuel lines, near the bottom. and for the fill cap as well. i cut standard IPS fittings and welded them to my holes, put fittings in them and started running fuel lines.
5. got a $70 fuel sellector valve for Autozone. followed the directions for wireing it up, and put a switch in the dash to control which tank to use. then connected my fuel line to it, and ran fuel lines from the valve to the intake and return on the 'fuel pump/injector/ fuel intake manifold'.
6. filetered WVO , filled up my tank (which I did pressure test first) and hollar'd ''****'' then shoot.

almost 9000 miles on just WVO in a little over a year and a half. it's paid it self off. I am pleased and would like to help ANYONE WHO IS INTERESTED! Thanks to everyone who's posted info, help, and/or support! Pictures to come soon!

WVO project pictures
 

Pictures by shotgunjames - Photobucket

here's some pictures of the finnished project.

Straight WVO is probably fine for older diesel engines (pre ~1990's?) but not so good for newer engines from what I understand.

Nice project!

What did the fuel selector valve originally come in? I'm looking to do a WVO tank in my Jetta once I get the diesel up and running and hadn't done a lot of research on valves, yet. That one looks perfect for the job:thumbup:.

Nacht- The MKIII VWs on (93-later) have catalysts in the exhaust, so I don't think they would do well with WVO. No experience to back that up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQmMVYMJwF0

this is a 2005 i believe, and my friend has a 2001 that we are preparing to do. my understanding that if the oil is clean enough there will be no problems. if the oil is heated and becomes 'thin' enough, it'll work the same as diesel!

well, i'm not sure of it's original application other than it's for a truck (gmc, mabey ford) that is diesel and has 2 tanks. you can go to autozone atleast, and they'll show you it before you buy it, or they'll show it to you on the computer. it is perfect, after looking at tons of different types and ideas, this one is cheapest, easiest, and smallest. i've had one problem around 7000 miles, and it got 'stuck' between the diesel and WVO, so no fuel would go through. we credited that malfunction to 'bumping the switch' or 'having it stuck in one position'. autozone has a lifetime warranty on that part, so i took it back and had it changed out for a free new one! no harm no foul, learned how 'to operate' my switch that way.

Nice writeup!

sorry to quote you again, but you said:

key word is PROBABLY, i'd bet alot-if not all in- that DEFFINATELY would fit in that quote better. Older diesels WILL run on multiple fuels, kerosene, off road, engine/petroleum based oils/distilates, vegtable oils, really any type of oil that has a CERTAIN viscosity-not to thick, not to thin- it'll run fine. keep in mind that most of that can be backed by books and research, but some is my opinion and experience.

I've seen a few NONsucces stories, but IMO their failure was most likely neglegence on the part of "cleaning" of the oil. It's a good idea to find a small or used water heater, fill it all the way with small pieces of stainless tubing, connect your fittings and have a good base of air bubbles, connect a small air pump/fish tank, now you've got a OIL DRYER. Little air bubbles will float up collecting water, and as the heater warms it lets the water evaporate when the air bubble bursts. if you've got the "picker skills" you'll find a small circulator or pump for circulating the oil as it heats and bubbles. "WET" oil WILL 'coke' the engine. very bad to try to burn veg oil and water, you end up with some kind of glycerine by-product i think.... that's just what i've seen, can anyone confirm or deny this?

Thanks!

I am not bashing you at all, and i hope nothing sounds sarcastic. I APPRECIATE ANY AND ALL FEEDBACK, wether critisism or praise, i can learn or teach with either. THANK YOU and everyone else!

Oh, yeah, some one brought up a good point. In my install, my tank is in an akward spot to access belts. I can access and change them but I don't have huge hands either! aside from that there isn't too much in the way, a mechanic might be aprehensive at first but he'll soon realize -with a little explanation- that it's quite simple. and thats if you 'need' a mechanic...for any big jobs, mabey. knock on wood, sorry i can't say since i havnt needed a mechanic to do any major work.

I don't think any of this actually applies in the case of a non-turbo '85 Jetta. Obviously no VGT vanes to gunk up. A quick parts search didn't give me any results for cat or EGR parts, which leads me to believe it wasn't equipped. Same for a particle filter.

As for the engine itself clogging up, it probably depends, as suggested above, on how well the fuel is cleaned and utilized. I'm sure if a mid-80's Benz can handle it, his Jetta can, too.

IMO F*** the warranty, as far as i'm concerned they just use that as a tool to keep you from venturing out of their little box. just curious (not sarcasticly) how many 2005-older car even come with a warranty? and how many of them are even sold by a dealer? IMO very very few of them. right?

sounds like experience. first hand? if so did you DRY your oil 100%? and i'm in the process of getting a centrifuge, which i'm convinced will filter the oil to 99.9999999% pure-no water, no particules, nice clean oil.

i've seen folks in TDI VW's running SVO (like the video above), am i only seeing them during their 'few months" of glory? i should write to the guy in that video and see how he's made out.
like i said, im here to learn and figure this out, all your help and time is appreciated!! like i said, with an luck we'll be doing this on a 2001 jetta, BUT not intill the facts are straight!

How about using "dry-gas" in the WVO, or is this a no-no? Also, how about running some ATF in the diesel once in a while as a cleaner?

A lot of this in new to me also and I'm trying to get as many facts as I can:D.

There are stories on the web of people who made this work very well for a year or two. People who appeared to really know what they were doing, and going to a lot of trouble to go about things the right way.

But eventually they suffered engine trouble, and any savings on fuel were then spent of rebuilding the car!

This is why I personally decided not to go down this route. If I had an old clunker, and a source of very cheap engines whioch I could fitr myself, then I might reconsider...

Ya, that is the same thing I've seen for the later (especially in the 2000's range!) VW TDIs using straight WVO ... works great for a while and then the engine is toast.

It probably does have a lot to do with how well the oil is treated beforehand, but now it's sounding more and more like the same amount of effort as brewing biodiesel, which (provided that's done right) the ALH series of TDI engines (which would be found in the 2001 Jetta TDI) can handle without any modifications at all.

hmmm... i might disagree a little about it being almost as much work as biodiesel. adding a 'dryer' and a 'centrifuge' to the parts list of WVO is a little chunk of change (free-$250 for a water heater plus stainless peices, then any where from 100-$1500 for a centrifuge) BUT still no chemicals and titration tests, etc..... as well the centrifuge could be used to recyle used motor oil to put back in the engine (if you believe in changing engine oil) as well as tranny, and even WVO to fry another day.

the ALH series can handle 'biodeiesl' fine? is that what your saying? if so id agree with that. now that you mention it, that's one of the initial reasons i was doing bio-diesel first. just pour and go... but found out it is a mute point with the older engines that can handle different oils w/o problems.

does anyone have links, vids, books, something that pertains to TDI failures and possibly successes?

my goal right now is to contact folks who've done anytype of OIL (--un-refined into a distilate, ie wvo, svo, wmo, etc...--) vehicle project in/on a TDI(or similar engine) and find out a few things. first thing id' like to know is: was the oil completely clean? (2) was your oil 100% dried? those 2 questions are very important factors that I need answers to b4 i even consider it as a non-possibility. -diffinative, proofable answers.

any hombrewers know the price per gallon that they are producing biodiesel at, as of recently?

TDI stands for -turbo diesel- is that correct? perhaps i just need to study the modern diesel engine a bit more.

thanks again folks!

I would say check here: Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc) - TDIClub Forums. Especially check out A Guide To Almost Properly Using WVO - TDIClub Forums, which talks about a positive WVO experience on a later TDI engine as well as having a link to a negative experience. Bottom line seems to be that to use WVO on the more recent engines (ALH and PD for instance) you have to be particularly careful about cleaning the oil. Sounds like you are (and plan to be for the TDI) but I wouldn't say that is the norm for everyone.

I've been using (nearly) straight (B99) or blended (B20) biodiesel for the past ~50,000 miles without any problems on my ALH engine; others on the TDI forum with the same engine have reported several 100K miles with positive results. Later engines are a bit more sensitive to the bio (due to lubricity and DPF issues IIRC). WVO is a mix of positive and negative results.

You dont want to add alcohol to a diesels fuel. The alcohol/water mix is not good for older diesel fuel systems.

That is easy to fix, delete the EGR and the soot trap / converter.
The EGR on VWs is known for clogging up even on straight diesel fuel. Might as well go with the perminant fix even if you aren't messing with WVO.
As long as you dont install a VGT in that 1985 you wont have to worry about it.

I have ran WVO cut into diesel since 2006 and never had any problems.
But I process my WVO to clean as much gunk out of it as possible before it goes into the tank and then it has to go through a filter system I devised for handling dirty, wet or other wise contaminated fuel.
I even tore down my engine and didnt see anything abnormal.
I am in the process of installing a VGT and plan to keep on cutting WVO with my fuel.

The best thing you can use to clean out a diesel engine is water injection, short of tearing it down and scrubing it in a parts washer.

very nice, thank you for that link. i don't know how i havn't been there before but i'm glad i am now. some good info there! and a glimmer of hope still!

VGT? not aware of that accronym, can someone explain a little on that?

me and my father have our own plumbing business, and one saying we try to live by is "if you can't find the time to do a job right the first time, how are you gonna find time to fix it?" and with that in mind i'm ready to step up to bat with these TDIs. A great personal gain for me to do this would be to convince family/friends that you don't need a car as old as you to drive for free. If i find success with my friend's TDI then i would easily-finally-convince my old lady (who has to have a NICE car) of WVO.

Thanks again folks, everyones help and time are greatly appreciated!!

does wiki stand correct:
In diesel enginesBy feeding the lower oxygen exhaust gas into the intake, diesel EGR systems lower combustion temperature, reducing emissions of NOx. This makes combustion less efficient, compromising economy and power. The normally "dry" intake system of a diesel engine is now subject to fouling from soot, unburned fuel and oil in the EGR bleed, which has little effect on airflow but can cause problems with components such as swirl flaps, where fitted. Diesel EGR also increases soot production, though this was masked in the US by the simultaneous introduction of diesel particulate filters.[6] EGR systems can also add abrasive contaminants and increase engine oil acidity, which in turn can reduce engine longevity.[7]

Though engine manufacturers have refused to release details of the effect of EGR on fuel economy, the EPA regulations of 2002 that led to the introduction of cooled EGR were associated with a 3% drop in engine efficiency, bucking a trend of a .5% a year increase.[8]

?

ok, not to ruffle any feathers but, an EGR is used for emmision control right? and that only matters if you believe emmisions are a problem, which to some extent i can understand but it's not something I give a rat's @ss about. global warming and that whole nonsense doesn't matter much to me (since it's about the BIGGEST scam man has ever undergone-soley to bring about a carbon tax...) just research solar activity/history.... so an EGR valve is good for lower engine temps, lower emmisions, and it makes the tree huggers happy right? AND less power? so it's not really needed is it?

VGT=Variable Geometry Turbo

Weather or not EGR reduces emmisions is debateable.
You get Less NOx, more soot, lower FE, less power and more problems later on.
The only benifet for FE I see is it could reduce engine warm up times. But then again so will grill shutters.
EGR lowers combustion temps, so does water injection (but water injection does not increase diesel soot).
Diesel EGR is not needed and seems to all around be bad.

So as long as you are not in LA or houston TX, NYC then NOx is generally not a problem.

Of course its a scam, they want to back door tax every family between $600 and $3000 a year and they have no way to fix the problem, and will offer no product or service in return, unless you count making electrical power and fuel more expensive as some kind of a service.
I have no problem paying taxes as long as I get something in return.

I used WVO on a 1986 Mercedes 190D 2.5 L diesel for 10 months. Initially after I created my fuel heating system, and some other engine mods the engine was running great. It didn't like to start on WVO that's for sure, but once it was up to temp, it ran well. I LOVED the smell of the veggie, and miss it to this day. After 5-6 mths I had issues with my fuel filters clogging. I added stainless steel cleanable prefilters to help deal with chunks getting through the fuel system. The oil was completely dry and settled for a month before useage, and was filtered down to at least 5 micron. Most times it was brought down to 1 micron. As far as the WVO quality, I don't think I could have gotten any better unless I adapted a centrifuge system. What I learned the hard way is that if the WVO is not atomized well enough(due to fuel temp or low injection pressure/poor nozzles) it will wash down into the engine oil and dilute it. It also gums up the piston rings, and can cause them to not move like they should. Non moving rings, and diluted engine oil are very bad things! I also noticed growth in the steel fuel tank. There were large flakes of reddish brown gunk that was coating the inside of the fuel tank, and was the worst where the fuel met air inside the tank. This was what was clogging my filters so frequently. I knew my fuel going into the tank didn't have that junk in it when it was going into the tank, so what gives??

After some research I found that used veggie oil is a very strange chemical animal and no two batches are the same. Some oil is fried at certain temps and exposed to certain cooking ingredients, and some is exposed to a whole different gamut of things. This chemical inconsistancy combined with the fact that veggie oil tends to pick up trace metal elements like copper and brass which catalyzes other chemical reactions was what was causing my fuel component system growths. Since most folks use brass and copper components or copper and brass bearing components in fuel injection systems or fuel preheating systems allows it to receive plenty of catalyst to allow a whole host of unanticipated chemical reactions to happen. My whole fuel system was full of these types of growths on very critical functioning fuel system components, and functionality was severely degraded as a result. Take that for what it's worth!



If I were going to use veggie oil on a vehicle I would move toward a different type of injection strategy-namely one that totally volatalizes the fuel so it was be combusted in a completely homogenous form as an percentage of total fuel delivered to the engine. For instance use the injection system in the car to control start of injection timing, and allow it to supply 100% of total fuel need for initial startup and warm up. Once things are warmed up and ready to go, introduce the volatalized gasseous veggie oil into the engine but limit it to only 40-60% of the total fuel introduced. This way it would allow you to supplement your normal fuel of choice(D2, or bioD) with the veggie oil and not cause issues to fuel system components, and be introduced in a way that the vehicle can readily make use of it. I have created a prototype and experimented with a system just like this during my work for a company to create a fuel saving device. I was never able to finish that project for that company since they terminated that part of their business, but what I learned is still fresh in my mind.

Try water injection.

If you dont want stuff growing in your fuel tank add diesel to your wvo.

I've done the water injection/decarbonization as seen here, and I fully believe in it's benefits:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugn8TI0TMio


Also, I did actually add D2 to my WVO-I mostly ran 50/50, and still had funky stuff growing :(

The diesel obviously in my case help-there was still dissolved catalyst( brass, copper etc) in the WVO and combined with elevated fuel temperatures and exposure to air it caused polymerization in my tank and other fuel system components. Plastic tanks, plastic fuel lines, and stainless steel based fuel injection systems would be better at alleviating this type of condition I should think. Maybe that's why some powerstroke guys have had much better luck with it.

..

It's bacterial growth, but there is some anti-bacterial stuff that you can add to the tank / WVO to kill off bacterial growth before it even gets started.


These critters will get anywhere, and grow anywhere, given the right conditions.
WVO is a treat for them.
Add a bit of water, heat, and the stage is set.

I have a mostly factory fuel system with the minimum of added copper and brass fittings and I dont heat the fuel, also only rarely run 25% or more WVO.
I have never had any problem like that.

A little bit of methanol will kill pretty much anything.

I should bore scope my intake runners now that I have been running water injection. Hmmm....

Good to know, thanks folks. I haven't noticed any growth or build up in my little tank, but I will take a good look again later, and see if i can get a 'swab' sample of the side or bottom of it. As far as the WVO gumming stuff up, well the only problem i've had was the failure of the selector valve, that i found upon examination after taking it out that it had a 'gummed' up internals, but i did not test it to see if it was actually ceased. the other factor to that problem was a small rub in the fuel line going to engine had developed an air leak.
with that in mind, and from what ive seen with WVO, when WVO is exposed to air it gels and gums up, but if left in an air tight vessel that gumming and such NEVER occurs. also there are hundreds of different types of VOs that are used for frying, and your climate is a factor, as well as a few other variables....peanut, soy, coconut, olive, corn, rapeseed, hemp, jathro, there's a bunch of different types of oil that a WVO enthusiast can run into and each has similar yet DIFFERENT characteristics... there are ways to test your oil to determine: free fatty acids, Ph, viscosity, etc. on top of that you have to deal with the human factor- EVERY BATCH is different. each restaurant has different chefs, and different chefs fry different things, and change their oil at different times, etc. one may have a lot of FFA and one might have alot of water cooked in it. i can't say that I practice what I preach 100% but I am aware of it and try to KNOW MY OIL and know what it is i'm gonna be putting in my engine that i rely on getting to work with.

Now for the 'decarbonization'. I haven't learned to much about that one, but right now i'm not fully convinced. is this a process for newer engines or is it something that will work on all diesels? what about this on a gas engine?

The only experience i have with MIXING WVO is a 50/50 blend with Kero. I used this on an oil fired furnace in my home for a winter. I had problems with it lighting, but ran good for most of the winter. I ended up using a small container of heat fuel (diesel) to start it and then would switch to my blend (same theory as in the vehicle minus a heat exchange). towards the end of the winter i began to have problems with it even running consistently on heat fuel. then again that aint a diesel, it's a whole nother animal... but i did learn something there.

IMO, i've learned that heated diesel fuel (say diesel you put in your WVO tank) will pass by the pistons and mix or displace your engine oil. A very bad thing to occur. so unless you heat your setup with electric, or have valves & bypasses on your 'engine coolant' heated WVO lines, with out having a way to turn off the heat i wouldn't run diesel through it, straight or mixed. that's my opinion, but it is fact that heated diesel will go past the pistons and its bad.

now josh8loop, i like what your talking about in regards to the complete combustion/''volitalization'' that's needed. Possibly injector work, tighter springs in them would mean higher pressure, meaning more complete mist, right? water vapors help this process? why not just use a nebulizer and have real true vapors going in there? if it can all be burned then there will be nothing left to 'polimerize' inside the engine, problem solved. hah

thanks folks, good food for thought!

I tore down my diesel in 2009 and I had burned a lot of WVO and there were no signs of WVO gunk build up and this was long before I ran water injection.

You have to be carefull what you fumigate your intake with, vaporized WVO wont have much detonation resistance.

Water injection works on cleaning diesel and gas engines, wind sheild washer fluid works better because it has alcohol and soap on it.
Water injection does not appear to boost fuel economy on gas engines.

James.

I ran many gallons of WVO, in the hundreds. Aside from making note of how much WVO I added to a tank of fuel to track MPGs I never bothered to track it.

Detonation resistance in fuel is the same concept as octane in gasoline. Diesel, kerosene, vegetable oil or any fuel molecule that is in a long thin hydrocarbon chain or fatty acid chain typically do not handle being compressed and heated in the presence of air.
Naturally detonation resistant fuels are short hydrocarbon chains like those found in propane, butane and a lot of the HxCx chains found in gasoline tend to have good detonation resistance.
Fuel molecule that are in clumps or rings tend to have excellent detonation resistance, fuels like methane, methanol, most of your alcohols are clumps. Benzene, acetone are rings. Both groups have "octane" ratings well over 100.
Natural gas, methanol, ethanol and propane are what you typically fumigate diesel intakes with to boost power and/or fuel economy.

If you feed a low octane fuel in high enough concentration into a diesel it will all ignite well before the piston reaches top dead center.

Water injection has been used on carburetors to lean the mixture, cool combustion temps and reduce pumping losses there for boosting fuel economy.
These days we use computer controlled lean burn and replace the water with EGR.
The only data I have found shows experiments with water injection on gassers producing lower fuel economy.

FEeding an engine hot humid air appears to give better FE.