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-   -   Am I on to something? (https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/am-i-something-12995.html)

AeroModder 04-18-2010 12:21 PM

Am I on to something?
 
When a section of pipe came off my exhaust, I had to drive a lot softer to avoid being obnoxiously loud. I noticed that if I get up to speed relatively quick, then just barely add enough gas to go, the exhaust stayed pretty quiet. The trouble was, I was very gradually slowing down. Any more gas and it was a bit loud.

I ended up driving half the tank with the exhaust open, then went on the freeway up to the local drag strip. I drove faster than usual on the freeway and made a couple passes at the strip. I was going to test some intake setups and have quantified results, but something didn't sound right after the second run, so I called it a day. Haven't heard that sound since, but I didn't want to risk breaking something.

Even after all that, I got 26.4 MPG, matching my last best tank. When I got the pipe back on, I didn't concern myself with working the throttle that carefully, but the other day, I decided to try it again, bringing it up to a little above 55, then letting off te gas enough so it's decelerating at a very slow rate. I noticed the needle on the gas gauge didn't move much at all after the usual 20-mile commute to the nearby city.

I'm thinking of this as a modified "pulse and glide," since I'm using very little power to keep the car going on the "glides."

It's been a little over 200 miles this tank, and I still have just under 1/3 of my fuel left. I'm wondering if this is going to be a record tank!

So, am I on to something here, or just discovering on my own what everyone else already knew?

MadisonMPG 04-18-2010 10:36 PM

You're pretty much P&Ging.

hummingbird 04-19-2010 04:25 AM

I tried this technique to much benefit recently. The weather was unbearably hot, and I had to go some 200 miles at a stretch. I was forced to keep the AC on, and therefore EOC coasting was not possible. I just decided to 'micro-P&G' - get up to 80 kmph, let the car come back to 75 on DFCO, then add a gentle burst of power to push it back to 80, DFCO to 75, rinse and repeat.

I got 47, without shutting off engine at all, at a respectable speed of 80 kmph.

Since then this has become my fallback option if I cannot do EOC coasting. (the entire summer months are 'fallback', with some exceptions).

Nevyn 04-19-2010 10:15 AM

Over on CleanMPG, this is known as "Hang Time" and it's VERY effective. :)

AeroModder 04-19-2010 10:41 AM

No wonder my last 3 tanks were around 25 or better. XD

Thanks guys!

MadisonMPG 04-19-2010 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AeroModder (Post 171224)
No wonder my last 3 tanks were around 25 or better. XD

Do you have an automatic transmission?

gasstingy 04-19-2010 01:14 PM

I use my AC a good deal in hot weather too. What I've started doing is to get the car cool, make sure the recirculate button is on so I don't start miing the hotter outside air, turn off the AC button and turn up the fan speed. For my 20 mile commute, this cuts my AC usage by about 1/3 and I stay relatively comfortable the entire time.

AeroModder 04-19-2010 01:23 PM

Madison: Yes, it's a 3-speed auto, and I can barely stand it. Though I can get it to short-shift by itself if I barely touch the throttle, but I'm crawling forward with all the speed of a slug. I only do that if there's no one behind me. This tranny makes the engine spin at 3K RPM around 60 MPH.

gasstingy: I actually removed the AC compressor at the same time I removed the power steering.

ac6404 04-21-2010 12:42 AM

hang time, haha i like that. I drive a manual and just pop it in neutral to do the same thing. Do you put it in neutral to glide when you do this on an automatic? you said 3000rpms so I gues not. If you can, I feel like shifting in to neutral on your automatic for coasting would get you even better FE, as you should coast farther if your wheels arent turning your engine.

AeroModder 04-21-2010 01:16 AM

I'm not actually coasting for this, but barely touching the gas so it's just barely slowing down, maybe a half a mile per hour every 10 seconds, and I hold that throttle position until it drops to around 50.

zjrog 04-21-2010 09:20 AM

Interesting... Hang time, will have to try it.

AeroModder 04-21-2010 10:15 AM

Here's the post over on CleanMPG:

Quote:

I call this technique "Hang Time". I discovered it while driving cross country with a group of other hypermilers earlier this year. I first noticed it on the 1st generation Honda Civic Hybrid we were driving and then confirmed it on the 2nd generation Honda Civic Hybrid that we also had. Any engine that employs VVT/VVT-i or VTEC/VTEC-E definitely has this feature but so do many other vehicles, including the Ford Ranger. The only way to know for sure on a non-VVT/VTEC engine is to use a ScanGauge II to verify.

It's a fairly simple technique. Here's how it works:

While driving at a constant speed and in the highest gear possible for that speed simply back off the accelerator a "notch". You will notice that your RPM and speed remain the same but you have, in fact, invoked a fuel flow rate that is roughly 10% lower than it was. You can hold this throttle position for a long time, usually until you have to adjust for the terrain. This is why I call it Hang Time.

If you have a ScanGaugeII you can see this effect (and dial it in much better) by monitoring TPS, RPM and iMPG. When the technique is properly invoked you will see your TPS drop by a few points while your RPM and speed stay the same but your iMPG goes up by around 10%. For example, while driving on relatively flat ground at 55 MPH in 5th gear my TPS is at 26, my iMPG is around 50 and my RPM is around 2540. When I invoke Hang Time my RPM and speed remain steady but the TPS now reads around 24 and my iMPG reads around 55.

----------

From an advanced perspective this technique can be combined with a form of Pulse & Glide (P&G) to really crank out some great numbers. A ScanGauge II is required for a "Hang Time P&G" as the movements are too sensitive to guess at.

Once you reach a speed slightly higher than your target speed invoke Hang Time but instead of just backing off one notch go for two. Using my 55 MPH example above the TPS will read about 22 in the second notch. You will start to bleed off speed but just slightly so (maybe 2 MPH per mile), and your iMPG will read 30% higher than usual at this speed. Hold this position until you bleed off to 5MPH below your target speed and then push the throttle in just one notch. You will see a TPS reading of just 24 or 25 but you will begin to accelerate while still maintaining better than 45 MPG! Once you are above your target speed again back off to the second notch and settle back in while you glide again.

You will see different TPS readings at different target speeds but the formula will remain the same.
This says you need instrumentation for it, but I've been going by feel and ear. Except with non variable-valve-timing engines, there are mixed results as to whether this works or not. But after using this technique with two passes at a drag strip and some fast freeway driving, and still rubbing up against my best tank, I think it can still work for non-VVT/VTEC cars.

MetroMPG 04-21-2010 10:37 AM

Madison: FYI, it's not pulse and glide if there's no glide. Glide = transmission in neutral.

---

My bet is you simply drove more conservatively overall due to the open pipe, and your improved fuel economy isn't simply from this one tactic.

Personally, I've tried "pulse and bleed" several times in my own non-lean burn, non-hybrid, non-vvt car, and found no benefit over simply driving with load (DWL).

wagonman76 04-21-2010 12:30 PM

Quote:

Here's the post over on CleanMPG:...............
Sounds just like what I do a lot.

rmay635703 04-21-2010 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetroMPG (Post 171501)
My bet is you simply drove more conservatively overall due to the open pipe, and your improved fuel economy isn't simply from this one tactic.

This is the method I use on my Buick to net almost 40mpg, its very odd and seems to only occur on automatic vehicles, MT it doesn't happen.

Its reverse of DWL in that you allow the car to slow (very slightly) on flat or inclines and for me was much more effective than DWL. I also would accellerate when needed on flat ground or down inclines if needed and still DWL'd as much as I could up the incline but needless to say on an auto you can't DWL up long hills the whole way.

My foot would get tired because the motions were so small, but I could maintain speed barely for tremendous distances while getting about 10mpg better FE on the guage

Something to try on an auto I guess. It doesn't really work on my dodge because the thing slows down like it has a parachute behind it.

AeroModder 04-21-2010 07:47 PM

I wish I could get the tranny to stay in high gear at lower speeds, but since it's an auto, it won't. I guess this could be a trick to get automatics to give better mileage!

I need to pick up a scangauge or something so I can actually quantify this.

MetroMPG 04-21-2010 08:53 PM

...MPGuino. ScanGauge won't work in pre-ODB-II vehicles.

99LeCouch 04-21-2010 09:12 PM

Interesting. I must be bleeding speed too quickly. I'll have to try this on my next long trip.

gascort 04-22-2010 09:00 PM

Aeromodder, you may have the same circuitry in your car as my escort has. (with lean burn)... I've only found a thing or two on the internet about it; apparently Ford called it LOC (Lean On Cruise).
Mpguino and others' wide band O2s have verified this; when the car's warm and in closed loop for a few seconds at light throttle and at speed, it re-enters open loop and increases AFR (air to fuel ratio) up to around 17:1 (If I remember correctly).
If I watch my iMPG on my MPGuino on a flat stretch while going 60-ish mph, I see numbers go between high 30s and mid 50s when this switches on and off.

My goal is to get the car aero and low engine drag enough to do this part time thing at 65-70 mph and all the time at 55-60 mph - would let me get into the 50s.

gascort 04-22-2010 09:21 PM

sources...
 
The Yeager's Ford Escort LX Wagon
March 2005 post

Ford Escort Owners Association

There's also an EPA bulletin mentioned about emissions and the escort's lean burn, but it's been taken offline since it was linked anywhere. I have all the emissions sniff test results; the car always performed way below regulations!

Apparently it's not a new thing; there's mention online of it being on GMs around the 90s

AeroModder 04-22-2010 10:33 PM

I'll look into that. I don't know if the Tempo's 2.3L has the same setup your 1.9L has, but I'll do some research into it.

Update: It's been 230 miles since I filled the tank, and I'm just now getting to a quarter tank. Usually I'm at the 1/6 mark or coming close to E by now! A quick estimate puts me at 27 MPG for this tank, but we'll see what the final number is when I fill it up sometime next week, probably Monday night.


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