Electric Motorcycle moonshot idea.
 

Are there any instant mpg gauges for motorcycles?

I'd like to compare mpg at mph curves for 125-250cc motorcycles. Specifically, i want to be able to calculate the cost effectiveness of adding a hybrid system. What benefit a motorcycle would have from a low speed hybrid system, so that i'm only averaging combustion engine mpg at cruising speeds.

The second purpose is to try to estimate how high an mpg i could potentially get while cruising at 55-65mph with a continuous long range low power (1/2 total hp of cruising speed?) electric assist to the gas engine. Also how small a displacement engine could i get away with with such a system.

This would then indicate what battery capacity has the most impact for price and range. I suspect a small 3kwh. The expandable lithium battery bay, 3-10kwh would allow me to add more kwh over time.

The 5 year plan is to have a 90-100% faired in vehicle that can potentially get 200+mpg (maybe significantly more) with the benefit of plugging in before the battery is empty, and 150+mpg crossing the country at 65mph. The electric motor would be able to run independent of the gas engine either by front wheel electric drive (if safe), or by the ability to declutch from the engine.

Anyways, that is my moonshot idea. I won't be constructing anything in 2-3 years so don't get any ideas. I need to learn many things about welding, fiberglass, and EV conversions. And i don't have the necessity of requiring such a high mpg bike, or the financial motivation as of yet. I expect in 5 years that Lithium prices will drop, and gas prices will rise. Making the project even more financially viable.

Isn't motorbike gearing well suited for low speed since it's so short? From what I understand you can just go into the top gear really early and roll along at 30mph getting insane mpg? Highway on the other hand runs the short geared engine up to very high rpm which is extremely inefficient.

Thank you, your right that a motorcycle will consume far less fuel accelerating to speed than a 2,000lbs car. Maybe that isn't where the most improvement could be had?

I hadn't thought about how having an electric assist not only throttles the engine less, but i could then get away with insanely high gearing and maybe even see better than expected results. I'm thinking a final gear that would bring a normal motorcycle to a crawl. Gearing is the other half of mpg gains from Aero as they say.

My inspiration is a cross between the 200mpg 125cc honda innova, and the 470mpg winners of the vetter challenge decades ago.

Well, if you can measure the fuel consumption paired with speed you would have something there. I think they make fuel injected bikes as well as flow meters. Maybe you can rig something up? :thumbup:

At the least do what mythbusters does. Make a fuel cell, weigh it, drive x number of miles at desired speed, then weigh whats left and repeat at different speeds.

There isn't much room in the chassis of a two wheeler for all of those components. Maybe if you used a hub motor.
.
Your gas engine will need to make at least 100% of your power at highway cruise. 15 hp?
.
Hybrids don't really improve highway economy. They just improve the acceleration of a really efficiently undersized gas engine and provide some regen braking around town.

The motorcycle would be extended for aerodynamic and stability reasons. Taking the the example of the 200mpg honda innova; I believe a motorcycle can achieve 33.5-50wh/mi in EV mode through a complete aerodynamic fairing and the small frontal area of a bike. This is about 680-1,000mpge, 680mpge being my conservative goal (which is phenomenal compared to cars). For 100 miles of range, that would require a 3.7-5 kwh battery. I've been told "using standard lithium technology would only be 3.7kWh, or about 82 lbs, and would measure about 5 x 18 x 25 inches, thus easily fitting under the seat for example." Such a small pack would be relatively cheap, don't know how much but south of $2,000. To start, i could get away with a really cheap 2.5 kwh battery for 50 miles. To compare, this is plugin car range, not prius hybrid territory.

My theory is that diluting a 100 mile EV range over 300 miles constantly assisting the gas engine is better than driving 100miles in ev mode, then 200miles on gas only. At a 100mpg gas engine for the second example, i would average 150miles for every gallon of fossil fuel consumption. But how high an mpg could i get cruising at 65mph by throttling back the engine from a 15hp cruise to 1/3 (10hp gas 5 hp electric) or 1/2 (7.5hp gas 7.5hp electric)? I know in my car a little less throttle to where the car slowly looses speed will jump the instant mpg gauge a lot high than what i get maintaining speed.

I'd like to try to extrapolate a graph of how a motorcycle's gas engine gains mpg by throttling back the engine in percentages, while still maintaining the same speed. Would it be linear? Is there a sweet spot in the curve where mpg skyrockets?

I think in constant assist mode, the electric motor would also be able to cherry pick ideal conditions to get the best mileage. Take the VW XL1 for example, the sum of its short plug in range and the mpg it gets on diesel will never be able to add up to the 300+mpg it's stated to get. Something else must be happening when they run in combination.

I see where you are coming from, stretch it to be able to fit passengers and cargo in a low frontal area, keeping the vehicle safe in traffic on the other hand would be the difficult part. A low vehicle means lower cd and frontal area, however your visibility goes down with area. Shell designed a vehicle that could get 12000 miles to the gallon, however if it drove down I-35 it would get smashed because nobody would be able to see it.

Have you given any thought to the boxfish shape to be able to incorporate more space into a streamlined shape? Making you more visible?

Yes. The opposite of what you are thinking. 90% load at the rpm of the first torque peak. 50% percent load is never more efficient. That's why we Pulse n Glide.
.
The best streamlined electric bikes are still over 100 Wh/ mile at 100 kph. Some electric bicycles can get to 30 Wh/ mile but at a much lower speed of 30 kph.

What about going with a vintage vacuum gauge as a way to interpret engine activity into fuel efficiency?

A vacuum guge would work fine, but you might have to add a small reservoir to dampen the oscillations in the gauge at lower RPM. Most bikes with vacuum petcocks already have a fitting in the intake manifold that you could use for your vacuum source. My 87 Rebel 450 has one as well as the Vulcan 500. A tee off the petcock hose would give you a vacuum source without any other modification.

On a Rebel 250 the petcock is not vacuum operated, so you would have to drill and tap the maifold for a vacuum fitting. The Rebel 250 uses a single carb for both cylinders, so it would provide a more steady vacuum source, but might still need a small reservoir to prevent gauge flutter at lower speeds. Try it both ways and see whish one works well enough for your preference.

regards
Mech

What kind of reservoir do you mean and how do you propose I go about attaching it to the air intake on my rebel 250? a vaccuum gauge would be neato!

90% load may be power efficient, but is it also fuel efficient? If i used a tiny engine and had it run all the time at 90% load to produce 15hp for bare minimum cruising at 65mph, will i get better mileage than a 250cc cruising at 65mph?

That almost basically describes the character of a serial hybrid. So maybe i'm better off going that route?

On the EV album website, there are several conversions of 200-250cc motorcycle frames that get 100wh/mi and can do 65mph+. Which isn't to say it gets 100wh/mi at 65mph! Probably worse, cause you lose tens of miles of range due to drag at 65mph. But if i get it from .5cd down to .16cd, I'd say i can improve mileage and range a lot!

Later, i'm gonna post about some estimates and benefits of a serial hybrid motorcycle. There is one unfinished serial motorcycle on the Ev album that i found!

Power peak is at a higher rpm. 90-95% load at just under the first torque peak shows the best efficiency. This is usually still way too much power in many cars and all but the smallest engined motorcycles such as the CBR250R where it is even still necessary to pulse and glide. Serial hybrid seems like it would be a no brainer but as the Volt shows (38 mpg on long trips running on gas), the losses are significant.

I've thought some more about this and pure electric with a detachable genset seems the way to go. For one this saves weight and complexity. My previous hybrid idea is just too prone to mechanical failure. Pure electric is simpler and more reliable. More aerodynamic too as i don't need to cool the engine. Since it will be full faired to a pure teardrop shape, i'll be using so little power, that the genset would be 4.5hp or less to sustain battery charge at freeway speeds, or 2hp to very nearly double the range. This would be in the range of the smallest genset you can get.

It would go without the genset 99% of the time with an electric range that exceeds most electric cars. It's sole purpose would be to extend range between charges on cross country trips. So i could cover the same distance in the same amount of time as a typical gasoline car driver.

My original purpose of making a hybrid motorcycle was to increase the charge to drive time ratio, and to increase the range between charging stations. But the infrastructure of level 2 charging has improved so much so that a range extender isn't necessary. And the rate of level2 charging a small 5kwh battery would be 20 minutes at 15kw? I was previously discouraged by reports from last year of 3.3kw and 6.6kw on board car chargers. Electric vehicles, especially electric motorcycles have come a long way in a short time.

The goal of the Moonshot motorcycle:
The most cost effective, fully enclosed streamliner possible.
Get the most range from a cheaper smaller battery,
with a faster highway cruising speed using a cheaper less powerful motor.
Driver + Dog, 1,000mpge.

Better figure on at least 80 Watthours per mile at 60 mph. If you come up with the best streamlining ever. Which is 425 mpgE. A 16 kWhr battery kept to 80% of capacity for longevity would give 160 mile range. Fortunately for EV DIYer's right now, there are leftover AMP20 cells still available from cut apart Fiskar packs for $0.34 per Watthr. Your pack will cost you $5,500 now. New cells are more like $1.20 per Watthr. You would need a 150 Watt generator to keep up with highway travel. Charging from 220v at 30a would take 2 hours. A 6.6kW onboard charger will be almost as big and expensive as the battery. This starts to become a 900 pound beheamoth as Terry's ZERO is. Streamlined as his bike is, he still uses 100 Whr/ mile at 60 mph.

Thanks Sendler. I've gotten many good insights from your posts which i'm starting to grasp now.

Terry's "beast" is the runaway weight scenario i'm trying to avoid. I'm hoping having a lighter weight will get me into a zone of peak efficiency that will give more range per kwh and compensate for 1/2 to 1/3 his battery pack. Everything is to be scaled down from the expensive range. A small pack can have 120 miles of range in the city, so i'm hoping aerodynamics will give me that range at highway speeds. Optimal aerodynamics is the only solution. There is no point to going 70% of a boat tail, chopping the end off and calling it good enough.

I probably won't reach my goal, but it doesn't hurt to aim high. I'm finding that compromise is the name of the game. I really want to make something that i'll prefer to ride to my car. Or else i'll just be burning gas most days with an electric vehicle in the garage. Frontal area is the biggest issue. The difference between high and extreme efficiency is a razor thin margin of tens of wh/mi. The difference is square inches of frontal area.

But doing that kills most of the practicality of the vehicle. If i want a practical vehicle, i'm hoping i can get within no less than 70% of my goal at highway speeds. Combined cycle, i should nearly reach it.

What is the point of hyper efficiency in an electric motorcycle? Useful single charge range.

The search for a US Honda Innova clone.

I've been looking for a Honda Innova/ Wave clone in America for a while now with much frustration. I've decided Importing is a no go, even if i could bypass customs by declaring it for an electric vehicle conversion. It's hard finding a large wheeled scooter in America! These are my two picks for conversion.

My first choice among the available clones is the Kymco People 50-250. A big plus is the scooter is designed to be capable of freeway speeds, unlike the Innova and clones such as the Honda Super Cub. 17 inch wheels, the cutoff being 16 inch wheel minimum, which precludes 90% of "underbone" style scooters. It had to be an "underbone" frame for feet forward semi recumbant seating. Telescopic front forks, and what looks to be a decent suspension for the deletion of all gas components, and the added weight weight of about 120 lbs of batteries, 28-32 pound motor, assorted electronic components maybe 50 lbs, a complete fairing of unknown weight. Suspension could be beefed up if necessary.

Here is a diagram of the frame which can be bought for $300. Steel tube frame is a plus! The frame is the most important part, as every body panel must go.
OEM Parts
http://www.motofoto.es/fotos/2553/bi...-50-100904.jpg



My second choice is the Honda cub. The progenitor of the Wave/ innova series. It's slightly smaller, nice big wheels, skinnier tires, with plentiful old models. Don't like the front suspension. However it's lightweight stamped frame is not confidence inspiring. I have issues with it's highway worthiness seeing that they usually only have a 50cc engine not capable of greater than 55mph.

http://thekhnews.com/wp-content/uplo...10-2013_01.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_dlt8k_lxV9.../frame+001.jpg

I think the wheel base of the scooters is too short to fit everything in. You would have to put foot pegs on the front axle to get any foot forward position. A chain drive motorcycle would be much easier to fit to a motor.
.
Weight has almost no effect on cruise range and efficiency where air is the enemy. But it is hard to pick up when it tips over.
.
A used Honda Rebel would be easy to find a good price on and offer a low seat height and foot forward position.
.
You could ride it on gas for a summer to make sure you like it before sinking any money into the project.:)

That's pretty much the plan. The height should be a helmets clearance above the top of the scooter. Which will make for a small frontal area and less side area for cross wind stability. I'm hoping the extra weight will stabilize the vehicle. 3-5kwh to start, 7 kwh max,. I could experiment by mounting battery weight high over the front forks, and some where the rider would normally sit. So the weight would be mounted high, even though the whole body wouldn't be tall. So that gives an idea to the scale of the vehicle. Just for perspective i'm about 5'5 120lbs.

Wheel bases are: Honda Cub 47 in, Kymco People 53 in, Ninja 250 55.1 in. It's a little shorter than the Ninja which people have built fish tails to. I could look into adding a foot or two for cross wind stability. It's starting to be a single occupant vehicle now.
Here are the specs:
KYMCO People 150 Specifications - KYMCO USA

I know the whole thing is just a little bit crazy, but hopefully not impossible. I'll buy some scooter or motorcycle in the spring. This should get me out of the dreaded planning stage and into the doing and building stage.

Edit: You were right, it's belt drive! What a pain. I hope it's not too difficult to add a sprocket to the rear wheel.

The belt drive housing is the swingarm and is also part of the engine case. There is also a final drive reduction in the back as well. A chain drive motorcycle would be a much better place to start

Don't bypass the belt too soon. Light weight, needs no lube, runs on aluminum pulleys, high efficiency. Check out the Gates Power Transmission site.

I like belt drive. I wish my Honda CBR250R had belt drive. But modding a scooter cvt to get rid of the gas engine and retain the belt drive would require some major butchery as the drive case is also the swing arm and part of the engine cases.

What do you guys think about a 1969 Honda CT90? The more robust trail version of the cub.

I put an ad in Craigs, and got a message from a guy. He mentioned Vetter, i said what? apparently he owns the Honda NX250 that won a Vetter challenge. I'm assuming it's Charly Perethian's NX250 that won the 2011 Ohio race?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-k...it?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-k...it?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-k...it?usp=sharing

What is the top speed of that bike? 45 mph?

I believe 50-55mph. The electric motors i'm planning to put on it should have a continuous hp 2-2.5X that of the stock engine. The peak HP will make it the fastest scooter ever. I do have some qualms about that :)

I could do with a motor with less hp, but climbing the berkshire mountains on the mass pike east to west is not fun. My Insight for example really doesn't like it.

I have had the thought of using an industrial diesel engine (16 hp. air cooled) and a belt torque converter system from a racing kart on a small motorcycle frame.
As to reducing frontal area I made some aero handle bars for a triathlon bicycle so I can lean on my forearms. Motorcycle bars are also 7/8" diameter. It might take some time to get used to the different throttle position.

I think this would be a good choice for your project, it comes with a dual range rear sprocket. One could be used for the gas engine and the other for electric. Also there are a number of Honda clone engines of various capacities available, all of which should fit straight in. and minimal frame mods would be required to achieve a recumbent riding positiion. Loads more information at The Honda C90 Club • C90Club.co.uk

Could you help me get an email address of a moderator there? I've tried 3 times in the past to register there and have yet to receive an activation email.

This should help :-

Activation Email not sent/ received

Postby Newtsalad » Fri Dec 06, 2013 4:39 pm
If you haven't received your activation email within 5 minutes or so, email your username, to me, newtsalad @ c90club.co.uk from the email you registered from!

And I will manually activate your account. DO NOT attempt to re-register please! :D :D :D

So back to the title of the thread is there mpg read out gadgetry for scooters and motorcycles or no? And also do they use an OBD just like cars or did they use something else?

The control modules on a motorcycle or scooter, if they have one, will likely be much different than on automobile. Emissions and fuel management modules are usually vendor specific. Check with a dealer or tuner in your area for info on the newer systems (1998 and up). Ignition systems went from breaker points to CDI, and then came fuel injection. I would look at flow gauges from scientific or industrial supply firms