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Old 05-24-2012, 03:54 AM   #51 (permalink)
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I have had very good results with water injection on my diesel.
No need to waste time with HHO.
I am getting at least solid 4% improvement when towing on a very cheaply built rig that takes no more than refilling water to maintain and it only draws 4 amps 15% of the time as the pump cycles on and fills my surge tank.

Sticking with what works here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisoverson View Post
recharge a battery at home then use it to generate hydrogen whilst driving then it is actually possible to make gains with it.
You would be better off doing an alt delete if you are going to go through all that trouble. The alt delete has a history of good MPG gains.

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Old 05-24-2012, 09:53 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Hydrogen enhanced combustion has been well documented to improve fuel economy and emissions. As a drop in fuel replacement for gasoline its a dead end way down on power and range. Hydrogen does have some desirable characteristics. Burns 4X faster then gasoline, easily ignited, MON octane 130. Blending 5%-20% with fuel supply cuts gasoline consumption about the same amount. Kind of like using lighter fluid to bring charcoal in barbeque up to burning temp. Making hydrogen on the fly via brute force electrolysis isn't going to get the job done. Pulse width modulation ( ala Stan Meyers, Bob Boyce) may have some merrit.
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Old 05-24-2012, 10:23 AM   #53 (permalink)
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So jiggling the current modulation will reduce the amount of energy needed to separate the molecules and magnetize the non-magnetic gases? Nope, sorry.
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Old 05-24-2012, 03:31 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokey442 View Post
...Making hydrogen on-the-fly via brute force electrolysis isn't going to get the job done.
...quote of the day!
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Old 05-25-2012, 02:13 AM   #55 (permalink)
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only 6 pages -

- and ppl have finally latched onto the fact that the subject of this thread is about hho suplementation. i am beginning to understand why this thread has been moved to the unicorn corral. what i cannot get is why a site that considers itself "alternative" needs such a quarantine - unless grill blocks, cardboard airdams and kamm backs only to be eclipsed by someone placing a gasoline powered generator in the back of a car to create a "hybrid", are the limits of creativity/innovation

found: Fuel-Saver Forums - Fuel Efficiency Technologies
a site more specific to hydrogen use.
also finally met up with someone who did onboard HHO supplementation on a turbodiesel @ 13.8V/8 amps and claimed noticable MPG increase. with that much wasted heat i seriously wonder about any gains...

oil pan:
"I have had very good results with water injection on my diesel.
No need to waste time with HHO.
I am getting at least solid 4% improvement when towing on a very cheaply built rig..."

is this straight up water? or do you add fuel to it? if only water are you suggesting a 4% improvement due to the high EGT readings and resulting increased diesel fuel use you would have without its use?
i have found on diesels aside from the EGT control and tamed flame front (besides some benefit from thermo expansion) it is mainly the cooling that is of benefit but not exactly with significant MPG gains. what is YOUR secret?
it is gassers where water injection has tremendous potential. by manipulating fuel volume and or timing interesting things (MPG) can happen since a spark ignition engine under load is naturally on the verge of pre-ignition. like previously stated i would looooove to play with a CRX HF!

if you would like to see positive effects on MPG and power try propane supplementation!

Last edited by max_frontal_area; 05-25-2012 at 02:16 AM.. Reason: addition
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:57 AM   #56 (permalink)
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There are dynos and testing data available online that show gains with water injection... with the proper tuning, of course, to take advantage of it.

No gains that I know of with gasoline (a friend tried running it) except in terms of power production on turbocharged cars (with non-turbos, a measly 3-5% power gain... a friend tried it), though it might be possible to run a lot leaner with it on any engine.

Have heard good things about diesel-propane, but distilled water costs a whole lot less...
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Old 05-25-2012, 05:14 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokey442 View Post
Hydrogen enhanced combustion has been well documented to improve fuel economy and emissions.
Any flameable super heated (at room tempature) gas like propane, natural gas or butane does the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by max_frontal_area View Post
-oil pan:
"I have had very good results with water injection on my diesel.
No need to waste time with HHO.
I am getting at least solid 4% improvement when towing on a very cheaply built rig..."

is this straight up water? or do you add fuel to it? if only water are you suggesting a 4% improvement due to the high EGT readings and resulting increased diesel fuel use you would have without its use?
i have found on diesels aside from the EGT control and tamed flame front (besides some benefit from thermo expansion) it is mainly the cooling that is of benefit but not exactly with significant MPG gains. what is YOUR secret?
it is gassers where water injection has tremendous potential. by manipulating fuel volume and or timing interesting things (MPG) can happen since a spark ignition engine under load is naturally on the verge of pre-ignition. like previously stated i would looooove to play with a CRX HF!

if you would like to see positive effects on MPG and power try propane supplementation!
I use tap water.
No fuel added to the water.
Unlike HHO I have no secret. Every detail of what I run is on the wiki, its not too difficult to figure out.
I wouldn't call 4% a significant improvement.

Water injection has little potential to boost FE on gassers.
You are better off with aero mods.

I already tried propane back in 2006 for boosting FE. It was expensive and in the end figured it was more trouble than it was worth.
But I plan on revisiting propane for short boost power.
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Old 05-25-2012, 10:20 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by max_frontal_area View Post
what i cannot get is why a site that considers itself "alternative" needs such a quarantine - unless grill blocks, cardboard airdams and kamm backs only to be eclipsed by someone placing a gasoline powered generator in the back of a car to create a "hybrid", are the limits of creativity/innovation
Oh, sure... We should all just up and try out the latest and craziest in supposed fuel economy mods right this very instant! Even if they cost a lot of money, have been shown to not really do much in terms of real-world gains, and/or have been shown to damage or destroy our cars!

Yah, I'll get right on that one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by max_frontal_area View Post
if only water are you suggesting a 4% improvement due to the high EGT readings and resulting increased diesel fuel use you would have without its use?
i have found on diesels aside from the EGT control and tamed flame front (besides some benefit from thermo expansion) it is mainly the cooling that is of benefit but not exactly with significant MPG gains. what is YOUR secret?
Gee, engineering states that cooler intake air in a diesel directly increases its efficiency. Nothing mysterious about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by max_frontal_area View Post
it is gassers where water injection has tremendous potential. by manipulating fuel volume and or timing interesting things (MPG) can happen since a spark ignition engine under load is naturally on the verge of pre-ignition.
Okay... I'll bite. What are you trying to sell?
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:54 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by max_frontal_area View Post
what i cannot get is why a site that considers itself "alternative" needs such a quarantine - unless grill blocks, cardboard airdams and kamm backs only to be eclipsed by someone placing a gasoline powered generator in the back of a car to create a "hybrid", are the limits of creativity/innovation
The point is those are proven, on-board electrolysis / HHO / "hydroxy" / Brown's gas or whatever you may call it, simply isn't.
Where's your back-to-back test data ?
Your test methodology ?
Heck, you're not even maintaining a fuel record here so people could see your improvements.

Referring to a forum of a company selling these products doesn't really add to your credibility.

The "Why Skeptics are 'Sure' Hydroxy Boosting doesn't Work " is kinda funny.

When I go reading there, all I read is rubbish like:
"There is also gas going into the engine and it is the gas that fuels the motor, not the hydroxy."

Dude, we KNOW of the beneficial effect of substituting gas or diesel with just about any gas that burns better.

"But, the skeptics keep forgetting, hydroxy isn't used for fuel."
"Earlier I said that hydroxy acts like a catalyst to fuel. "
Catalysts don't get burned in a process.
The H2 does, so it's a fuel, wether you like it or not.


This is the best :
"Word of advise, don't argue and debate with someone who obviously doesn't care to try and understand a technology "

You meet the weirdest people on the 'net, but you don't really know them.
Some of them might actually be smarter than you, or at least smarter than you think they are.


Oh err ...
It doesn't help either when one ends up on a dead link following the "A writeup from NASA", "A writeup on hydrogen and combustion fuel rate" .
Some evidence ... indeed !

Why do I think it's funny ?
Because the entire 2-part article provides bugger all to convince a sceptic.
It's just there to keep the believers happy.
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Last edited by euromodder; 05-27-2012 at 08:45 PM..
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Old 05-28-2012, 05:35 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euromodder View Post
Dude, we KNOW of the beneficial effect of substituting gas or diesel with just about any gas that burns better.

"But, the skeptics keep forgetting, hydroxy isn't used for fuel."
"Earlier I said that hydroxy acts like a catalyst to fuel. "
Catalysts don't get burned in a process.
The H2 does, so it's a fuel, wether you like it or not.
When any super heated at room tempature flameable gas is sent into a gas or diesel engine it is called fuel.
On the rare occasion that you see a test where botteled hydrogen is fed into a gas or diesel engine to boost fuel economy that hydrogen is called fuel, not catalyst.

Whats so bad about sticking with proven fuel economy boosting methoids?

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